When you think you are on top of things (update)

[Tony Slater]

Doesn’t it make you question the effectiveness of Pagden yet it’s the most commonly taught swarm control method?
I’ve had mixed results and had a swarm by leaving behind one frame of what I thought was sealed brood only. Problem is it’s easy to miss just one small larva and they will build a cell from this & they’re off within 4 days.
A v experienced beekeeper in our association says he never leaves any brood with the queen / flying bees in a Pagden and always puts a queen excluder underneath, until the queen starts laying to prevent absconding.

Just wondering your thoughts based on experience, of the most effective method of swarm control once you’ve found open charged cells?

We had 4 colonies 3 weeks ago. We now have 9 owing to swarming and one split. We did two Demarees and they did not swarm (well one did but went back in again unaided). The other two have swarmed, one of them three times. This is despite taking down around 60 queen cells in all and checking everything every three days or so. We are now placing the swarms in brood boxes on top of the colonies from which they originated. Completely separate, unlike a Demaree, with two entrances. The idea is when they are settled and both queens laying, they will be very easy to reunite.

 

[Murox]

I must say that beekeepers’ ingenuity in swarm management never ceases to amaze me. I’m quite giddy reading through all these methods and folks’ adaptations of it.
I like to keep things simple. I nuc the queen reactively and Demaree proactively. My beekeeping is quite boring really.

Piaget would be glad to hear that.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Think the methods you use are v solid & I’m slowly migrating that way. Probably as I’m still in the flush of beekeeping ‘youth’ that I dabble with different techniques, for interest and in the quest to learn and gain experience. You’ve probably been on a similar journey and now settled on the techniques that work best for you.

I tried Pagden for a season as a beginner then a few years back Wally Shaws modified snelgrove on two colonies. One colony killed the queen on her return.

 

[Tony Slater]

Piaget would be glad to hear that.

When you nuc the queen, what do you do about stopping casts from the original hive.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When you nuc the queen, what do you do about stopping casts from the original hive.

You reduce the cells to one open one when you split them, Mark the frame and return 7 days later to remove the others

 

[B+.]

You reduce the cells to one open one when you split them, Mark the frame and return 7 days later to remove the others

I frequently see people on this forum who've lost their colony because the queen failed to return from a mating flight. IMHO, it's well worth having a couple of mating nucs on the go so that, if the worst happens, you have a spare queen, or two, available. If you don't need it, leave it in a nuc to overwinter incase you have winter loss. This seems to be something we should all do.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I frequently see people on this forum who've lost their colony because the queen failed to return from a mating flight. IMHO, it's well worth having a couple of mating nucs on the go so that, if the worst happens, you have a spare queen, or two, available. If you don't need it, leave it in a nuc to overwinter incase you have winter loss. This seems to be something we should all do.

Sound advice
You still have your queen in the nuc as insurance though

 

[B+.]

Sound advice
You still have your queen in the nuc as insurance though

For those who want to expand, that's the way to do it.
I would always say to keep a few as back-ups in nucs though. If people look at their historic loss and plan to over-produce queens by double that amount, you can maintain your colony numbers. I say double to allow for things to go wrong (as they can at each stage - particularly towards the end of the season).
If you end up with more than you need, there'll always be someone who hasn't planned for loss in need of a queen.

 

[jeff33]

Update on apiary mayhem. The 2 swarms were from the same hive led by 2 virgins. I nuc the queen a couple of weeks ago and my notes forgot to remind me that I had to go back to thin down cells...so here is the evidence to back up the above comments.
The swarming did however create chaos in the apiary with the other hives. Today was like a picture perfect though and no other hives were showing signs of swarm prep.

 

[elainemary]

I frequently see people on this forum who've lost their colony because the queen failed to return from a mating flight. IMHO, it's well worth having a couple of mating nucs on the go so that, if the worst happens, you have a spare queen, or two, available. If you don't need it, leave it in a nuc to overwinter incase you have winter loss. This seems to be something we should all do.

Completely agree with this. A great tip.
Sometimes we’re on ‘automatic’ with advice ringing in our ears, to reduce cells to one. Just done my first swarm control of the season. Put the queen into a Nuc and left 2 nice open cells on 2 separate frames. I will leave one in the colony after removing emergency cells and I’ll make the other into a Nuc.
Last year in the same hive location the queen didn’t return from her mating flight, perfect weather conditions in May last year; took me a while understanding what had happened and resolving it . Won’t happen again! Famous last words

 

[madasafish]

From bitter experience, I double up on Q numbers and expect to get a 50% yield.
Also with overwintering Qs in mini nucs- I assume 50% losses. (Full size nucs are 10% losses).

With a winter/spring like we have had, I have used every spare Q either to replace dead/defunct ones or to make nucs.
Net colony changes - nil (with a lot of effort to stay afloat.)

Local beekeeprs report significant losses.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Completely agree with this. A great tip.
Sometimes we’re on ‘automatic’ with advice ringing in our ears, to reduce cells to one. Just done my first swarm control of the season. Put the queen into a Nuc and left 2 nice open cells on 2 separate frames. I will leave one in the colony after removing emergency cells and I’ll make the other into a Nuc.
Last year in the same hive location the queen didn’t return from her mating flight, perfect weather conditions in May last year; took me a while understanding what had happened and resolving it . Won’t happen again! Famous last words

Yes move a cell into a nuc by all means but don’t leave two in a big colony.

 

[jeff33]

I frequently see people on this forum who've lost their colony because the queen failed to return from a mating flight. IMHO, it's well worth having a couple of mating nucs on the go so that, if the worst happens, you have a spare queen, or two, available. If you don't need it, leave it in a nuc to overwinter incase you have winter loss. This seems to be something we should all do.

Yes great tip. for the first time I have been banking most of the demaree or AS Qcs in mating nucs or 3 frame nucs as an insurance. This also saves me the need for grafting so early in the season.

This year I also wanted to split my demaree hives as soon as the hawthorn is over giving them time to build-up again for the main flow and reducing the risks of swarming during June dearth.

 

[jeff33]

Yes move a cell into a nuc by all means but don’t leave two in a big colony.

Or you will end-up with the mayhem I had last weekend. On the plus side, I now have 2 more 3 frames nucs with virgins ready to mate.

 

[elainemary]

Yes move a cell into a nuc by all means but don’t leave two in a big colony.

Hi Dani just doing it temporarily and taking one out as soon as it’s sealed to make into a Nuc as insurance in case the one left in hive has mating problems. Thought it would be fed better leaving it there until it’s sealed. The original queen is in a separate Nuc. Should be fine as long as I time it to take a sealed cell out a few days before emergence?

 

[jeff33]

Hi Dani just doing it temporarily and taking one out as soon as it’s sealed to make into a Nuc as insurance in case the one left in hive has mating problems. Thought it would be fed better leaving it there until it’s sealed. The original queen is in a separate Nuc. Should be fine as long as I time it to take a sealed cell out a few days before emergence?

Yes but slightly trickier to know the exact age of the pupae with these kind of cells. Consider a couple of days earlier as a safer option.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Dani just doing it temporarily and taking one out as soon as it’s sealed to make into a Nuc as insurance in case the one left in hive has mating problems. Thought it would be fed better leaving it there until it’s sealed. The original queen is in a separate Nuc. Should be fine as long as I time it to take a sealed cell out a few days before emergence?

Yep

 

[B+.]

Yes great tip. for the first time I have been banking most of the demaree or AS Qcs in mating nucs or 3 frame nucs as an insurance. This also saves me the need for grafting so early in the season.

This year I also wanted to split my demaree hives as soon as the hawthorn is over giving them time to build-up again for the main flow and reducing the risks of swarming during June dearth.

I actually did my first graft of the year yesterday, I've delayed until the weather improved. It's still not perfect but it's good enough to raise queens.
When you are happy with continuity, it's easier to focus on quality. If you don't, you just end up with a large number of colonies you can't handle (swapping one problem for another). It won't surprise you to hear me say this: it all comes down to breeding.

 

[jeff33]

I actually did my first graft of the year yesterday, I've delayed until the weather improved. It's still not perfect but it's good enough to raise queens.
When you are happy with continuity, it's easier to focus on quality. If you don't, you just end up with a large number of colonies you can't handle (swapping one problem for another). It won't surprise you to hear me say this: it all comes down to breeding.

Yes and I should have noted that I have only saved the cells from colonies that have a track record. Others from colonies which have shown early swarming tendency or been aggressive have not been saved. I have even removed from the bottom of the frames the excess drone brood produced by these colonies. From the numerous discussion we have had on here over the winter I have decided to take on a more 'targeted approach' focussing on quality rather than quantity.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

This year I also wanted to split my demaree hives as soon as the hawthorn is over giving them time to build-up again for the main flow and reducing the risks of swarming during June dearth.

Jeff, interesting. I was wondering this about my demarees. Do i keep rolling through spring or take down and build up again.

Do you find there is time to dismantle or split and then build up again in time for main flow?