When to remove/extract?

[enrico]

Tomo, please try not to bite! People will only rise to the bait. I think it is important that books are not right or wrong. They are right for the time they were written for the conditions that existed at the time but those conditions change year in and year out! Therefore you have to make an informed decision using books, advice from local beekeepers, this forum and mostly the condition of your bees and the knowledge of your area to decide when to do what! If you get it wrong this year you will have gained loads of experience for next year! Even then you may get it wrong! Be patient, do what you think is right and see where it gets you and learn from it. I have extracted all but one super on every hive. I have left those because I have loads this year and thee bees may need it more than me if we have a bad autumn. That would be different if my crop had been poor!
I still need to treat but can do that with supers on using MAQS.
Best of luck with the decision you finally make!
E

 

[Tomo]

Thanks for your helpful advice as ever Enrico. When certain people constantly abuse others I get a little annoyed! That's why I became a policeman.

 

[TOBY-3652]

RAB what are you on about? are you saying that the highly recommended book used by many beekeepers for reference "Bees at the bottom of the garden " is wrong? You give out a lot of helpful information, but once in a while maybe you should read a book or two. So after trashing the aforementioned book what would you recommend? Why so negative towards beginners? If you don't like answering beginners questions and encouraging us then stick to the main forum you rude person.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Totally disagree Rab and Finman, this is my first year so would say that I am a beginner. I have quoted directly from "Bees at the bottom of the garden" with regards to removal of supers after the main flow when I say "the traditional time for super removal is the first week of September". Surely this as what the forum is for? i.e. getting an idea or feel for how different beekeepers deal with differing situations, so that one may be able to make an informed decision? Until I have stored away my experiences how am I supposed to know? Thanks to all other answers who have been helpful.

You really cannot beekeep by calendar dates. Empathy with your colonies is needed and it isn't something to be found solely in books. You have to take into account seasonal variations, local conditions, the colony's particular characteristics and a host of other factors.
You may feel that you are right based on your own thoughts now but in another year or more your views are likely to change. You may even discover the experienced and knowledgeable beeks weren't talking out of their fundament after all.

 

[BeeJayBee]

... are you saying that the highly recommended book used by many beekeepers for reference "Bees at the bottom of the garden " is wrong? ...

I have quoted directly from "Bees at the bottom of the garden" with regards to removal of supers after the main flow when I say "the traditional time for super removal is the first week of September".

Yes, I'd say it's wrong too because it's stating an absolute, and there's no absolute in beekeeping. Use it as a guide, but use your eyes to make sure your local conditions are the same as the book suggests - and do things differently if you need to. Also, take information from those who are answering your question now, rather than blindly accepting what's said in a fairly old book - [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bees-Bottom-Garden-Alan-Campion/dp/0713632070/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407278574&sr=1-2"]Amazon[/ame] suggests that this one may have been first published in 1990. Do you think anything's changed since then? If so, what?

Some people take off supers when they're fully capped, some remove single frames, and store them all somewhere until they've got all the capped frames they'll get before starting to extract. Others extract as and when they have fully sealed frames. Those with OSR will extract as soon as the flowers start turning, otherwise they end up with honey as hard as concrete - and that's late spring!

Some people in my area have already extracted all they'll take this season, because they don't want heather in their honey. Others will leave it until mid September because they want the heather honey, which only stops when the flowers finish and can vary from area to area. Some people find that if they leave extracting until the end of August then the bees will have taken it all down into the brood box, and there'll be nothing for the beekeper unless they extract from brood frames.

It all depends on the bees, the forage and the beekeeper.

If you want to do your beekeeping 'by the book', then don't ask questions either on the internet or in a club, because every beekeeper will give you a different answer - and none of them are likely to have exactly the same opinion as the beekeeper who wrote the book you've got on your shelf!

 

[oliver90owner]

Thanks, BJ. You are a thinking beekeeper.


We have some police around that can read, understand and think. There are others that can only quote from a book (probably read immediately prior) and are shortbof any thinking skills.

Perhaps understanding the meaning of a longvworsd like 'traditional' would help. Perhaps, as BJ pointed out, things could have changed since 1990 when it was first published.

Lets just give it a little more thought. OSR - why I extract in April/May. One reason why a thread like this is about as useful as a non-thinking plod.

Varroa? Hardly invented when this book was being compiled? Again, one has to think about these things, not just read it verbatim.

OSR. Not so very much around when this bloke wrote his book. How things have changed.

Climate change? Not heard of that? Invented since that book was written. Like I said, get a decent book.

Agriculture? Apart from OSR, lots of other changes have occurred since 'traditional' farming was the norm. Not noticed that fields have been enlarged, hedgerows have been grubbed up, hedges are mechanically shorn in spring and late summer/early autumn, not layedvas they were 'traditionally'.

Like I suggested, get a decent book on beekeeping. Beekeeping by dates is not the way to do it, unless you are a policeman, perhaps? Unless your only beekeeping book is a lot more flexible in outlook than the one you made the simple quote from. Unless your beekeeping book then goes on to explain that traditionally is not necessarily pertinent to the current situation (so that quote was taken totally out of context?).

And, while we are at it, please stop misquoting my posts. Please actually read them and think before throwing your toys out of your jamjar.

'Traditionally'. Now when would that have referred to when written in the 1980s? 1950's or before, perhaps. Now we are getting dated!

My favourite beekeeping book was published in the 1940's. I know there is lots that have changed, simply by reading a good book or few.

Further I did not say it was wrong (poor reading skills again?). What I said was to get a decent book. Perhaps one that actually explains the choices and gives tips for making decisions, nog just blindly quoting 'tradition'. For all I know, you are cherry-picking quotes and the book then goes on to explain how things have changed

 

[Dishmop]

"Traditional time to extract" ????

Do bees know anything about tradition?



It depends on when they have filled the frames, or filled them as much as they are going to.

 

[Pete D]

Hi Tomo,
I see from your earlier threads that you had a super of OSR honey that you removed and stored for later extraction in June and then in July you asked about feeding it back as it was solid.
This is exactly why you cant harvest by the books as each year the available forage changes along with the temperatures and other growing conditions and all this changes again for specific areas.
As a rule I look to having 3 harvests
Spring - early summer
Summer
Late summer.
You will note no specific dates just a rough plan / time line.

Some of my hives will yield all 3 harvests, some just 2 and some 1 or none.

This year I will be doing 4 harvests as I ran low on supers in 1 apiary so I had to empty them to let them refill them, but not all hives and not from all areas.

Traditionally around here they harvested wheat and corn in mid to late August through to September, this year the combines were out on 24th July after they had already cleared the OSR. If they had left it to the traditional time it would of all gone over and resprouted.
The point I am trying to make and that several others have in their own style is that its ready when its ready and you need to be flexible in your approach to recognise this and react accordingly.

Good luck on your beekeeping journey, bee prepared to change route now and then and take advantage of the traffic advice (ignore the presenters) unless experience has taught you a better way.
Read several books and with local help and experience you will see they can all be right and wrong at times.

As a side note, I have seen OSR sprouting after it has been resown 2-3 weeks ago, this is to over winter and I think it will need some supressing as it will be well up before the cold weather moves in which in turn means it will be even earlier next year and wont yield as temperatures wont be up enough..........all of course if the weather / conditions remain favourable.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well said Pete

I have in the past harvested just once a year - at the 'traditional' time or a bit later (Himalayan Balsam led)

This year I could have harvested in the late spring as there was a good flow, but just returning from Africa and trying to get my head around everything I left it on. I took 250 pounds off in mid June - again this super flow meant
a) I was in danger of running short of kit
b) some hives were getting ridiculously/dangerously tall
c) It was nice to have freshly extracted honey for the Royal Welsh show

I would have set out to extract another 200 plus pounds in the last fortnight but work got in the way so I shall be doing just that next week but I won't be taking it all off as they are still foraging albeit not quite as manically as the last few months. Depending on how the HB goes I shall then be looking at harvesting again at or about the 'traditional' time mid September.
It's a hard one to call actually, but if ever I can convince SWMBO that i need a dedicated extraction room then 'as and when' will be the 'norm' rather than at set times as I find the only thing discouraging me is the cleaning/preparing beforehand and the cleaning/packing away afterwards.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I removed all fully capped frames this week and left any frames that weren't fully capped on the hives.
Next week I intend to return the wet frames to the hives and remove any they have fully capped .
There is very little in beekeeping that seems to happen by the book.
Reading books is great but learning to read the bees is better.

Every beekeeper I have spoken to has said this year has been unusual. So traditional timing goes out the window.
Too many things can change, get an outline of a plan but be prepared to throw it out of the window.
Use any information as a guide, books,courses or other beekeepers but remember no 2 colonies are the same.
Remember you are dealing with living creatures and they do what they want when they want not because it traditionally happens around now or you want them to.

 

[Pete D]

Hi Emyr, I recently had this delivered and am currently kitting it out as my honey room. I too then will extract as and when but still try to stick to big sessions where possible.
SWMBO is very impressed in principle.

 

[psafloyd]

Hi Emyr, I recently had this delivered and am currently kitting it out as my honey room. I too then will extract as and when but still try to stick to big sessions where possible.
SWMBO is very impressed in principle.

You lucky, lucky...

 

[psafloyd]

RAB what are you on about? are you saying that the highly recommended book used by many beekeepers for reference "Bees at the bottom of the garden " is wrong? You give out a lot of helpful information, but once in a while maybe you should read a book or two. So after trashing the aforementioned book what would you recommend? Why so negative towards beginners? If you don't like answering beginners questions and encouraging us then stick to the main forum you rude person.

Tomo, the point is, there are so many variables that quoting from a book is pointless as it cannot take any into account.

Your climate, micro-climate, forage, IPM, views on winter prep and even lifestyle all influence what you will do and you must therefore make a call based upon those factors.

I had my first load of honey (about 90lbs) in May and it wasn't rape, not a bit. But I needed to make room for what was coming in after that.

I have just taken about 100lbs more and have something similar to be extracted when I can accommodate that within work, etc.

I prefer my bees to have their own honey over winter than sugar solution, which so many people will tell you is wrong. But then, my forage is different from many others.

My honey doesn't crystallise the same as some other areas and I have late harvest in the honey from the last few years still in the cupboard which is runny.

So, don't bother quoting chapter and verse –-the bees don't read the books. You need to make your own mind up based on reading, advice and experience.

And I think it is you being rude. don't dismiss the vast experience of Rab and Finman. Between them, they've been keeping bees for about 400 years.

 

[psafloyd]

Thanks for your helpful advice as ever Enrico. When certain people constantly abuse others I get a little annoyed! That's why I became a policeman.

I don't believe you were being abused, Tomo. The fact is, it all depends. And if it didn't –-or you believed it didn't –-why would you post such a straw poll in the first place?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi Emyr, I recently had this delivered and am currently kitting it out as my honey room. I too then will extract as and when but still try to stick to big sessions where possible.
SWMBO is very impressed in principle.

Nice - but I think even I would struggle sneaking that one via Mam's

 

[Pete D]

Nice - but I think even I would struggle sneaking that one via Mam's

You could always put a bed in it.......................


Nice flat roof for bait hives too

 

[Nige.Coll]

"And I think it is you being rude. don't dismiss the vast experience of Rab and Finman. Between them, they've been keeping bees for about 400 years."


They can be blunt but the more I have learned about beekeeping the more sense they make.

 

[psafloyd]

Nice - but I think even I would struggle sneaking that one via Mam's

 

[Pips]

I am about to do a first extraction this weekend. I have lots of balsam, heather, gardens and rose bay willow herb about so m thinking the bees will keep going for a while. I have ordered apiguard, but have very little varroa (have uncapped drone cells and found none). Should I skip the apiguard and see if I can get a second harvest? Have left plenty of stores for the bees. They are very very busy at moment.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You could always put a bed in it.......................

I'd have to!