Vicious bees

[B+.]

The reason I have not treated my bees over two decades results from two possible factors: 1. AHB infusion in my area 2. 30 years of having v. mites. Hence my deduction between defensiveness and resistance, a potential doctoral dissertation topic, indeed.

Here is a potential research topic for graduate students/bee-researchers: Is Defensive Behavior in Honeybees Linked to Pathogen Resistance?

I have had this long sneaky suspicion that defensive behavior, which most beeks do not want, is maybe linked to disease/pathogen resistance, considering how genetic traits seem to come in packages. It appears, I am generalizing here, the RNA switch, on and off, must be involved in and affecting not a single trait but a cluster of traits. For instance, the Siberian fox domestication project comes to mind: the gentle trait also comes with a change in the color of their fur (white spots).

AHB’s are known to be aggressive, but at the same time, they are also known to pick mites off their backs, like Cerana. Is there any link? By focusing on gentleness, have we weaken their resistance, a huge topic?

You are confusing aethina tumida (SHB) with varroa destructor - aethina tumida is a beetle (which we don't have in the UK - or, indeed, anywhere in Europe outside of notified areas in Calabria (Italy) and Sicily) while varroa is a parasitic mite. These are two entirely different things.
As far as I have seen, there is no correlation at all between aggression and varroa mite resistance. It is dangerous to suggest otherwise as it supports those who accept aggression in their colonies. I do not accept this argument at all.

 

[pargyle]

>You are confusing aethina tumida (SHB) with varroa destructor - aethina tumida is a beetle (which we don't have in the UK - or, indeed, anywhere in Europe outside of notified areas in Calabria (Italy) and Sicily) while varroa is a parasitic mite.

First of all, I know the difference between the two, but I was making a case for both. Secondly, while I do not have any ill will toward non-affected areas across the pond, your statement alarms me with such religious conviction--given the imports across the globe. I will take "So far it *appears* we have been saved from SHB invasion," for such definitive statement sounds as though you have checked every hive in the safe areas, especially ferals.

Nobody knows how we got ours first, and it does not have to be with bees; they can hitch a ride with any agricultural product coming in. Wish you the best.

Whilst it may only be a matter of time before any vermin escape across the globe to infest our beekeeping here, I fervently hope that the way we are monitoring and countering the imminent threat from the near continent in respect of the Asian hornet is reflected in any other pests that threaten our shores.

Unlike Oklahoma we have a moat around our island paradise and that does give us a small advantage - plus the network of experienced and vigilant beekeepers we have - particularly in those areas like the south coast, where I live, ensures that most invasions are spotted quickly and dealt with. We learned a major lesson when varroa arrived here and I don't think there is a UK beekeeper that is not acutely aware of the potential risks from other pests or is in any way complacent.

I value an insight into your ways of keeping bees and the challenges you face in what is a very different environment to most of the UK but I treat with caution advice that may not directly transfer to beekeepers and beekeeping this side of what is a much bigger moat than that which separates us from our nearest neighbours in continental Europe from whence our future bee problems may stem.

 

[BugsInABox]

The reason I have not treated my bees over two decades results from two possible factors: 1. AHB infusion in my area 2. 30 years of having v. mites.

Well not sure they are the only 2 possible factors. Top of my head how about...
3. Early colony death and restock (have you told us yet how long your colonies live).
4. Death from vd but attributed to shb. 20 nucs one season
5. Statistical outlier in otherwise typical bees
6.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I value an insight into your ways of keeping bees

Maybe one day he'll tell us all

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Secondly, while I do not have any ill will toward non-affected areas across the pond, your statement alarms me with such religious conviction--given the imports across the globe. I will take "So far it *appears* we have been saved from SHB invasion," for such definitive statement sounds as though you have checked every hive in the safe areas, especially ferals.

Nobody knows how we got ours first, and it does not have to be with bees; they can hitch a ride with any agricultural product coming in. Wish you the best.

If SHB arrives, I am pretty sure we will know very soon afterwards so B+'s statement is spot on. As well as limited imports and check on those that do come in, and beekeepers' observations, there are also sentinel apiaries around the country (mine is one, as I am near a port) which government inspectors check regularly.

 

[B+.]

>You are confusing aethina tumida (SHB) with varroa destructor - aethina tumida is a beetle (which we don't have in the UK - or, indeed, anywhere in Europe outside of notified areas in Calabria (Italy) and Sicily) while varroa is a parasitic mite.

First of all, I know the difference between the two, but I was making a case for both. Secondly, while I do not have any ill will toward non-affected areas across the pond, your statement alarms me with such religious conviction--given the imports across the globe. I will take "So far it *appears* we have been saved from SHB invasion," for such definitive statement sounds as though you have checked every hive in the safe areas, especially ferals.

Nobody knows how we got ours first, and it does not have to be with bees; they can hitch a ride with any agricultural product coming in. Wish you the best.

With respect, you've hijacked a thread which was started by @Popparand talking about aggression. You've suggested a correlation with mites where there is none. Now you're making it a an argument for aethina tumida to be poised to invade our hives when it is known to be confined to a part of Italy.
I am sure that @popperand must be wondering why he bothered asking.

 

[B+.]

One of my colonies was pretty aggressive last autumn and carried on trying to ding me for a while even after the hive was closed up. It was a swarm I collected on 20 May 2020 without any trouble and gave 28lb of honey in August. It overwintered with a super under the brood box and is still heavy. First inspection this year the bees "boiled" out of the hive (I now know what that means) and went for me like the proverbial. They are truly vicious! Both boxes were full of bees and the inspection board covered in cell cappings. On the plus side it is a strong colony and should yield a good crop this year. On the negative, they are borderline unmanageable. The options are:

1. Try to find the queen and kill her. I am not very good at finding queens and do not fancy spending an hour or more looking for this one, while under attack. Even then, if the workers rear a new queen from an emergency queen cell I may still have the same problem.
2. The super is now on top so they have plenty of space. Put up with them and hope they calm down when the weather warms up.
3. Strain the bees through a queen excluder on top of another colony (another swarm?) Bit tricky with brood and a half
4. Kill the lot with petrol. Not my preference
5. Con the bees with an artificial supersedure. Insert a queen cell from a calm colony, wrapped in foil with only the tip open. Does this work?

Any other ideas gratefully received!

My suggestion would be to move the colony to one side facing a different direction, possibly replace it with another colony if you have one so the workers are bled off to a more docile colony. Their behaviour may change when supporting a different queen. This will give you an opportunity to inspect a much reduced population and find the queen, if indeed she is present. Aggression is often linked to a queenless state so it may be that she isn't there. If she is, you can mark her which will make it easier to replace her later in the season. If she isn't, you can combine the colony with another if you have one.

 

[Ian123]

Doesn’t Dee Lusby maintain that her mad bees are mite resistant?

She also maintained it was down to small cell and not ahb

 

[Swn58]

Any other ideas gratefully received!

I posted about my near identical situation a few weeks ago. Based on the information that came back, I will see what they behave like in the coming weeks when I varroa treat. I hope that they will be ok, but am fearing the worse! The best advice was to kill the queen asap, then amalgamate the queen-less colony with another. To prevent any aggression continuing through the drones, I will try to eliminate as many of their cells as possible. That is what I have decided to do, if they are still as naughty as they were last season!

 

[B+.]

I posted about my near identical situation a few weeks ago. Based on the information that came back, I will see what they behave like in the coming weeks when I varroa treat. I hope that they will be ok, but am fearing the worse! The best advice was to kill the queen asap, then amalgamate the queen-less colony with another. To prevent any aggression continuing through the drones, I will try to eliminate as many of their cells as possible. That is what I have decided to do, if they are still as naughty as they were last season!

PLEASE: don't kill the queen until you have a replacement.
If you allow them to generate a replacement from her larvae (it's too early for there to be drones around yet anyway), you'll carry her characteristics through into the next queen (16 of her 32 chromosomes in her eggs). The best approach would be to obtain a queen from a docile line (buy one if you really have to) then kill the old queen. Destroy any of her drone brood you see until then. That will end her aggressive line and, hopefully, start a new colony with much better temperament.

 

[Earthboy]

I posted about my near identical situation a few weeks ago. Based on the information that came back, I will see what they behave like in the coming weeks when I varroa treat. I hope that they will be ok, but am fearing the worse! The best advice was to kill the queen asap, then amalgamate the queen-less colony with another. To prevent any aggression continuing through the drones, I will try to eliminate as many of their cells as possible. That is what I have decided to do, if they are still as naughty as they were last season!

I would love to hear your follow-up on mite count on this "defensive" colony compared with mite counts from other "gentle" ones. I know such comparison is anecdotal and statistically insignificant.

Earthboy

Because all beekeeping is local, all beekeepers are loco.

 

[Swn58]

PLEASE: don't kill the queen until you have a replacement.

I would not do that. All maybe fine after all. It's worth noting that a month back the hive was blown off its stand, and ended upside down (posted on here) I had no trouble righting the colony then, despite a lot of attention from the occupants. I have quite a few colonies in three locations. Access to docile queens is no problem. Indeed my aim is to raise queens this year from a couple I have specifically marked out.

 

[Swn58]

I would love to hear your follow-up on mite count on this "defensive" colony compared with mite counts from other "gentle" ones. I know such comparison is anecdotal and statistically insignificant.

Strangely enough at the end of last season I treated this apiary for varroa for the first time. I had bought the colonies as nuclei in May. I had not treated them earlier, assuming that it already would have been done. Much to my amazement, the first application saw the biggest varroa drop I have ever experienced. A second application brought it under control. Incredibly, only the 'naughty colony' had barely any varroa at all from the very beginning. I had assumed that all the nucs had been part of the same apiary. Maybe I was mistaken.

 

[Earthboy]

In post #3, you seemed to be suggesting that mite count correlated to aggression. If this is not the case, please clarify/retract. Otherwise, please supply some evidence. I do not see any aggression in my test colonies at all.

"Incredibly, only the 'naughty colony' had barely any varroa at all from the very beginning. I had assumed that all the nucs had been part of the same apiary. Maybe I was mistaken. "

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

I have previously done as JBM suggests and introduce a mated queen in the box with all the brood and non flyers or united with a nuc. In the new box with flyers I had put a marked frame of bias to keep them happy (ish) and 10 days after went in and removed that frame. I then re-united with the other half which by now had fully accepted the queen.

Or, if they are truly and totally still horrible, shake the NUC out and let them disperse.

 

[B+.]

"Incredibly, only the 'naughty colony' had barely any varroa at all from the very beginning. I had assumed that all the nucs had been part of the same apiary. Maybe I was mistaken. "

This is entirely circumstantial. Aggression is not correlated with varroa resistance.

 

[Swn58]

This is entirely circumstantial. Aggression is not correlated with varroa resistance.

I don't think so either.
I said what I said because this colony seemed very different. I get the impression that they were from another apiary, as they must have been treated for varroa and the others had not been. These bees came from Thorne's. People may remember that two nucs were 'underpopulated?' I was reluctantly compensated eventually! I get the impression that their bees aren't as good sometimes as they say they are?

 

[Earthboy]

I don't think so either.
I said what I said because this colony seemed very different. I get the impression that they were from another apiary, as they must have been treated for varroa and the others had not been. These bees came from Thorne's. People may remember that two nucs were 'underpopulated?' I was reluctantly compensated eventually! I get the impression that their bees aren't as good sometimes as they say they are?

I believe what you describe is a perfect example of immunity variation in any identical species. Some are more defensive than others, and vice versa, for example, due probably to genetic variations among them.

 

[Swn58]

I believe what you describe is a perfect example of immunity variation in any identical species. Some are more defensive than others, and vice versa, for example, due probably to genetic variations among them.

Ok....I gather you know more about this than me.
The problem is that I came into beekeeping ten+ years ago. Varroa was a major problem.....still is. I realised that wingless bees and weak colonies were a product of varroa, so developed my own way of treating them. I accept that they are always going to be there now, but try to tip the balance in my bees favour.

 

[B+.]

I believe what you describe is a perfect example of immunity variation in any identical species.

"immunity variation"....really?
You keep saying the same thing in different ways, hoping we won't notice.