Vertical split for swarm control--any success?

[Madge]

...

Tell us (royal) about these nurse bees being confined above. ...

Nobody said anything about confining nursebees. Learn to read.

 

[jeff33]

I suspect that your Snelgrove board isn't blocking the queens pheromones Jeff. I think you sad something about blocking the opening with a piece of gauze. That won't be enough. It needs to be completely blocked off.

That's what I did this time around with 3mm ply as I suspected the mesh didn't block queen's pheromones.

 

[jeff33]

I’ve not read the actual Snelgrove. At what stage does he recommend moving the queen down?

In my earlier post I referred to Wally Shaw’s description and he recommends (as I’ve said) keeping that set-up for the duration of the season, or only reintroduce the queen after the bottom part has reared a new queen.

MC, I have found the system I am using very easy although you still need to find the queen if you run a dble brood system unless you move the 2 boxes above. I personally combine all brood frames in 1 box and move above the snelgrove board. I feed this part as they will be without foragers.

 

[Madge]

... although you still need to find the queen if you run a dble brood system unless you move the 2 boxes above. ...

Yes, starting with two boxes might be difficult if one needs to move them both to the top - but you might be able to reduce them by moving empty frames to the bottom box.

I don’t understand why you need to find the queen. You just knock all the bees, and the hiding queen into the top box, and leave two brood frames without bees in the bottom box. They’ll soon be joined by the flying bees.

 

[Beefriendly]

Y
I don’t understand why you need to find the queen. You just knock all the bees, and the hiding queen into the top box, and leave two brood frames without bees in the bottom box. They’ll soon be joined by the flying bees.

Spot on. I run double brood and this is my "go to swarm control".....
I need to sort frames with sealed brood from those with unsealed. If sealed can go in bottom box. If excess open brood they get donated to other colonies/nucs. Never a precise way of describing what I do, it all depends on what I find on the day in that particular colony.
If it's been a long day and I'm tired it becomes a vertical pagden...

 

[jeff33]

I just like to try and limit the chaos of flying and confused bees when I do it. My queens are marked so usually easy to spot.

 

[eltalia]

Bill, the reasoning is simple, you remove the queen from flyers and foragers so they don't swarm and leave a frame of open brood with them so they can raise some QCs and keep them happy.
The top box with the queen has been bled of the vast majority of flyers and foragers and will not attempt to swarm. The bees in there will destroy the QCs.
You remove the bottom brood frame every 7 days so virgin can't emerge and replace with another frame of open brood. Keep bleeding flyers from the top box to the bottom and repeat for several weeks until the fever has gone.

I know how it works Jeff... how you figure I do not has me beat.
You still do not answer the question, tho'.
Here.. a refresher.
".... what is it about frame shuffles alone in the BC and/or super you find
your vertical split overcomes for you?"

Bill

 

[eltalia]

Nobody said anything about confining nursebees. Learn to read.

Your n0t alone in failing to interpret process in projecting
outcome... such is almost endemic among the loudest here.

/wry smile/

Bill

 

[jeff33]

I know how it works Jeff... how you figure I do not has me beat.
You still do not answer the question, tho'.
Here.. a refresher.
".... what is it about frame shuffles alone in the BC and/or super you find
your vertical split overcomes for you?"

Bill

If you know so well the process, you will know that once swarm prep are made frame reshuffle is a pointless exercise and you must split... Another irrelevant question I am afraid.

 

[eltalia]

0riginally Posted by eltalia

I know how it works Jeff... how you figure I do not has me beat.
You still do not answer the question, tho'.
Here.. a refresher.
".... what is it about frame shuffles alone in the BC and/or super you find
your vertical split overcomes for you?"

Bill

If you know so well the process, you will know that once swarm prep are made frame reshuffle is a pointless exercise and you must split... Another irrelevant question I am afraid.

Sooo we have "swarm prevention" and "swarm control"
to now have "swarm prep" thrown into the mix
as well. So just what is that "prep"(sic) - like the b'keep directs the swarm
where to go in showing them a cowbell?
Seriously, Jeff... you are n0t able to answer my question, eh - yer just
making this all up as you go along, habitial issit? (rhetorical)

FTR.. frame reshuffle as earlier indicated is a swarm prevention practice,
installed as the signs evolve (n0t QCs), and in fact make redundant all
that "faffing" around underslinging boxes, inserting gated "ekes",
moving selected frames of brood around 0r whatever error laden
unecessarily complicated realestate shuffle the romantic believe 'works'.
And all pointless as for healthy bees prone to swarm they wiill do so anyway
at the first opportunity - as threads in topics already relate (currently) and
no doubt the archive for this place is well peppered with as anecdotal.
Simply, a waste of g00d time, all of that nonsense.

Here...
Get the FD broodbox sorted at 8/10 in removing stores from the BB an using
drawn or partially drawn where available, throw the QX on and bootstrap
the whole deal by leaving the QR in place (you) fitted untill you had time to
restructure - or remove it, and in five days begin your broodbreak program.
Your choice. And no r00tin around with kit *and* bees.
Waaay more efficient, and "works" as "fit for purpose".

Bill

 

[B+.]

".... what is it about frame shuffles alone in the BC and/or super you find
your vertical split overcomes for you?"

Perhaps I can explain that.
Part of the problem is one of overcrowding, not just of bees but of fresh nectar coming in that temporarily blocks the cells the queen needs to lay in. Removing the foraging force relieves that pressure and allows the queen to lay again (or come back into lay if she has gone off-lay).
Using a single frame of eggs/larvae in the bottom box keeps the foragers content, since they have space to put the fresh nectar and stops them from drifting because they have eggs/larvae to develop into emergency queen cells. These will be sacrificed, of course, and the colony can be recombined with no loss of honey later.
If the cycle is repeated with a second frame of open brood, the swarming impulse will have been replaced by one of calmness as the queen is now back in full-lay (14-18 days later). Many of the old foragers will have worked themselves to death foraging but the stores they gathered are in the box. When the colony is recombined, this is returned to the colony and you haven't lost any production capacity.

It's just a temporary parking nuc that relieves the congestion.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Still waiting for an answer to my query on this. There is no point abusing people with your only unhelpful post to this thread if you can't back it up with reasoning... I reckon there are at least 3 bee farmers that are doing pretty poorly in managing their hives if they use demaree as a reactive method!!!

Swarm prevention is usually reactive - if you consider an artificial swarm which you would not undertake unless swarm preparations have started.


A Demaree with supers on the hive is essentially an artificial swarm but in one box. However you don't allow the queencells (well one) to develop in the top brood box but keep the original queen operating - by starting with one frame of brood and some drawn comb or foundation exactly as an A/S.

We know that some queens will still swarm after an A/S - especially if you leave it very late so as I wrote in my first reply, a Demaree works - but not always.

I would not want to do one as a preventative measure before queencells develop as I would be doing Demarees on colonies that would not have swarmed in the year so I would be wasting my time entirely.

The article by Demaree was interesting, thanks for posting. He doesn't mention having supers on the hive as we refer them - shallow boxes for honey only - and was swapping brood boxes up and down as far as I could see and referring to a "super" as the box above the queen excluder and not a shallow.

 

[eltalia]

Perhaps I can explain that.
(edit)

When the colony is recombined, this is returned to the colony and you haven't lost any production capacity.

It's just a temporary parking nuc that relieves the congestion.

Precisely, and my point is that parking station is unecessary when without
any true loss of production one can achieve a guaranteed "no swarm" outcome
as briefly laid out in post #50.
What is required is the b'keep pay attention as the season changes and is
able to make value judgement "on the fly"... something I will concede n0t
all will get 'right' first time nor indeed some ever be comfortable with.

Thankyou for your post - has to be the most intuitive contribution read as yet.
Ta...


Bill

 

[Madge]

Your n0t alone in failing to interpret process in projecting

outcome... such is almost endemic among the loudest here.

/wry smile/

Bill

Yet again, typical non-sensical gibberish from billox.

 

[B+.]

Precisely, and my point is that parking station is unecessary when without
any true loss of production one can achieve a guaranteed "no swarm" outcome
as briefly laid out in post #50.

I think you are missing the point that this is a technique that can be applied when charged swarm cells are already being constructed and other methods which might be employed earlier have failed i.e. the colony is determined to swarm.

 

[eltalia]

I think you are missing the point that this is a technique that can be applied when charged swarm cells are already being constructed and other methods which might be employed earlier have failed i.e. the colony is determined to swarm.

Not at all, mate... I accept what is being put is a technique for correcting lapse, yet
it remains messy and unreliable as ever.
Up against the simple QR gate as correction - turning 0ff the urge - the technique just
does not rate. And if you apply the pushcage method as briefly visted in post #50
even the most reticient of new players would gather confidence in swarm prevention
quickly. Which would you rather find, in knowing buggerall about bees, a group of
capped queencells or a group of partially chewed out queencells/cups where just
days earlier you were scouring the Internetz looking for "what to do with queen cells"???

And (bottom line) there is exactly what these discussions should be addressing - how
to get new players to invoke swarm prevention without filling their heads with nonsense
(karphuckle) around redundant methods every man and his dog has a differing opinion
on over the original 'inventor'.

Shut the gate or use a pushcage, erstwhile selecting and moving brood and associated
supered frames... too bluddy easy... maaaate.

Bill

 

[B+.]

Shut the gate or use a pushcage, erstwhile selecting and moving brood and associated
supered frames... too bluddy easy... maaaate.

I think the point that was made earlier was that not everyone can intercept swarming intentions early (either due to other commitments which limit their beekeeping time or a large number of colonies to manage). In any case, the situation will arise where someone encounters queen cells in quite an advanced state and it is too late to intervene with other methods. This gives them a method that stops them from losing the crop, or the bees.
I am wondering if this is something you don't/haven't encountered in AUS, perhaps due to differences in nectar flows? It certainly happens here with our capricious climate.

 

[eltalia]

I think the point that was made earlier was that not everyone can intercept swarming intentions early (either due to other commitments which limit their beekeeping time or a large number of colonies to manage). In any case, the situation will arise where someone encounters queen cells in quite an advanced state and it is too late to intervene with other methods. This gives them a method that stops them from losing the crop, or the bees.
I am wondering if this is something you don't/haven't encountered in AUS, perhaps due to differences in nectar flows? It certainly happens here with our capricious climate.

Nope same conditions occurr, just more often in some areas as flows can come on in all
seasons for the subtropicals. Likely the reason we (au) got this swarmimg gig
licked - we have more chances to practice getting it right?
True the beekeep can come in late buuut here for the hobbyist it is simply a matter of
knockdown and sort the BC out. For production though, maintaining numbers, the
queen restriction has to be included as at high numbers they will turn
to swarm within days of being 'fixed'.
What youse guys are trying sorting out through a tedious box and frame restructure.

Actually the single most prevalent (Aussie) practice is to stick to strains not known to
swarm and so not every year every colony swarms.
Hard message to sell here though, so I leave that one be.

Bill

 

[jeff33]

Update on the latest split which seems to have worked as they haven't (as yet after 10 days) made any visible swarm prep. Difference from the first attempt which was not very successful is that I have used the snelgrove board but blocked the mesh completely with some plywood so the 2 parts couldn't smell each other. I have also increased each cycle to 9 days instead of the original 6 days and used the various entrances from the snelgrove board to regularly bleed flyers from the upper part.

As this hive is rammed with bees it is now on dble brood below QX, 3 full supers, QX and another bb with 6 capped brood frames + foundation to draw making more space down below for queen to lay. I will carry on managing it that way by removing all capped frames to the top box or making up nucs as we are near the end of the main flow now.