Vertical split for swarm control--any success?

[jeff33]

I have tried this year vertical splits on 2 hives keen to swarm. I have put an empty brood box on the bottom with a frame of open larvae, left supers on, a snelgrove board above but covered the mesh to stop bees sensing the queen above and finally the old brood box with the queen on top with entrance facing the other way around.

After a week I removed the bottom frame with emergency QCs, put a fresh frame of larvae and leave for another week. I also swap entrances on the top to bleed flyers. After 2 weeks I re-unite but I have found that within 2 weeks they are keen to go again.

Do others do this method with success, should I perhaps do a 3rd week separated?

 

[maddydog]

When I've done vertical splits in the past I've left the queen in the original position with a frame of brood and the rest foundation. Original box goes on top above the supers and another floor. Worked fine for me.

 

[eltalia]

Is all this by choice Jeff or brought on through necessity?
Ta...

Bill

 

[jeff33]

Split is by necessity as they were preparing to swarm and the method is by choice as it uses less equipment and space.

 

[eltalia]

Split is by necessity as they were preparing to swarm and the method is by choice as it uses less equipment and space.

0kay... what is it about frame shuffles alone in the BC and/or super you find
your vertical split overcomes for you?

Bill

 

[Hebeegeebee]

A demaree has the queen on one frame of brood plus comb (better) or foundation (not so good) in the bottom box with the brood above a queen excluder above the super(s).
It generally works - but not always.

 

[Madge]

I have tried this year vertical splits ...

Do others do this method with success, should I perhaps do a 3rd week separated?

Jeff, I think what you’ve done is a Snelgrove II described by Wally Shaw here: http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdf, pp17-21.

He recommends not uniting until a new queen has emerged, or to keep the set-up for the season. That would mean moving capped brood down, and empty brood frames up for the queen to lay in.

I did it earlier this year, but only with queen excluders and a top eke with an opening - then, after a few weeks got fed-up with all this kerfuffle, and just moved the queen back down again. A couple of weeks later they made swarm cells again and I moved the queen away to a nuc.

 

[Beefriendly]

Jeff, I think what you’ve done is a Snelgrove II .

Nope.. With a .Snelgrove 2 you start with queen plus brood plus queen cells in top box above the Snelgrove board for a few days whilst bleeding off the fliers; you then move the queen down to the bottom brood box.
The presence of queen + Queen cells + nurse bees only in top box means bees tear down the queen cells, including the ones you always miss....fliers now have been bled off making queen easier to find and move down to bottom box. It usually works....with bees it's always best to say usually.

Jeff, 2 weeks is too soon, swarm fever is still instilled in them, better to give it 4 weeks. Although a lot depends on what you now want in way of requeening as you now have several options open to you once you have moved queen back downstairs ....And don't cover up the mesh makes uniting afterwards as easy as removing board.

 

[jeff33]

It wasn't a demaree as it was a reactive split. Demaree doesn't work when they start swarming preparation.

It wasn't a snelgrove either, but I used the principle to bleed off the flyers and ensure the nurse bees teared down all QCs.

BF, I have now re-united the hive removing all QCs from the single brood frame they had available to them. I will see this weekend if they have started preps again or not and take action. I thought 2 weeks was sufficient, will leave it longer the next time and not cover the mesh.

 

[eltalia]

@beefriendly
"The presence of queen + Queen cells + nurse bees only in top box means bees tear down the queen cells.... "

Sooo... this 'restriction' is fine when done from behind a Porter bee escape - or two -
but not so acceptable when restricted with foragers still able to service the cells.
Is this the theory relied on?

Bill

 

[eltalia]

" I thought 2 weeks was sufficient"

Beekeeping by numbers and coloured blocks has never
proven wise nor efficient in any apiary, Jeff. One has to
keep one's eyes onnit - what's going on broadly. It is a
learnt thing for many... as you are finding out.


Bill

 

[Beefriendly]

It wasn't a demaree as it was a reactive split. Demaree doesn't work when they start swarming preparation.

It wasn't a snelgrove either, but I used the principle to bleed off the flyers and ensure the nurse bees teared down all QCs.

BF, I have now re-united the hive removing all QCs from the single brood frame they had available to them. I will see this weekend if they have started preps again or not and take action. I thought 2 weeks was sufficient, will leave it longer the next time and not cover the mesh.

Trying to invent your own swarm control method? LOL...humorous LOL not sarcastic...
I know of no 100% swarm control method...but always willing to learn of one.

 

[Beefriendly]

@beefriendly
"The presence of queen + Queen cells + nurse bees only in top box means bees tear down the queen cells.... "

Sooo... this 'restriction' is fine when done from behind a Porter bee escape - or two -
but not so acceptable when restricted with foragers still able to service the cells.
Is this the theory relied on?

Bill

The clue is in "nurse bees only"......Go read Snelgroves book... no foragers...all bled off, no porters needed.
Usual Billox

 

[jeff33]

Trying to invent your own swarm control method? LOL...humorous LOL not sarcastic...
I know of no 100% swarm control method...but always willing to learn of one.

Not inventing anything really , it's a mix of pagden and snelgrove but using a single stack. Put the lot together, mix, shake and see what happens. It's a production hive so I don't want to impact too much on crop. If it works, I copyright it, write a book and pretend to be a master beekeeper

 

[eltalia]

The clue is in "nurse bees only"......Go read Snelgroves book... no foragers...all bled off, no porters needed.
Usual Billox

Heh... Snelgrove..?.. an ass,,, well proven.
Tell us (royal) about these nurse bees being confined above.
Or can you concede nurse bees can be anywhere, including
consisting of older bees morphed into care mode? 0r indeed
in short stores go foraging!


The problem I see in all of this particuar scenario is a hellva l0t
of name (book) dropping going on yet buggerall thought

Bill

 

[jeff33]

Name dropping is a lot quicker than describing the method in a post. This is however assuming that participants to the thread have done a minimum of reading rather than assuming they know it all.

In terms of thoughts I have probably thought a bit more about what works for me based on bees behaviour than what it may take you to put together some of your encrypted answers

 

[Haughton Honey]

Demaree doesn't work when they start swarming preparation....

Where did you get that from?

 

[eltalia]

Name dropping is a lot quicker than describing the method in a post. This is however assuming that participants to the thread have done a minimum of reading rather than assuming they know it all.

In terms of thoughts I have probably thought a bit more about what works for me based on bees behaviour than what it may take you to put together some of your encrypted answers

You l00kin' at me?
Yer 'havin' a laff right?

"Beg-inners" is over there -------->
The place for assumptions on assumptions... this place reserved for
exchange, knowledge exchange.
Hope that helps like, guv.

Compliments etc etc

Bill

 

[jeff33]

Where did you get that from?

The original Demaree method as intended and without modification is a pre-emptive method. There was another recent thread on this with all the original extracts copied and pasted... I am not wasting my evening here debating this... Or listening to Bill's nonsense for that matter.

 

[Beefriendly]

Where did you get that from?

Demaree is swarm prevention . Needs to be done before queen cells appear. Always has been always will.