Varroa

[user 6228]

With a lot of help from man.

and it still wasnt exponential, and it wasnt expanding into a competitive environment.

Finman has succeeded in diverting the argument away from the fact that there are bee populations surviving varoa and prospering. His argument has been that not to treat is guaranteed death for a colony. That "treat or die" argument does not hold water.

 

[Finman]

all the two of you are arguing about is how fast.

There is nothing to be arqued about. I put it as a joke to those, who believe that nature knows best. Nture knows nothing. There are no "nature brains".
There are a huge a´wasting everywhere. - according human terms...

If you guys know something about ecology, you should know that in nature nothing happens so fast, even if idividual gets how much descendants.

Look at the bird nest which has 5 eggs. When the youg birds leave the nest, during first weeks 3/5 are dead. Next year the bird nummer is almost same.

In Austaralia wild natural beehive dead rate is 20%. But they make normally 2 swarms, which is 200% more annually.

But what happens to those +200% swarms...Australian bee colonies are not billions after 15 years. They are almost same.

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[user 6228]

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What makes new mite females infertile


There is a bee population on Gotland Isle (Sweden), which stays alive under natural mite pressure but it does not show extra hygienic behaviour like other mite tolerant strains.

It was found out that sterile daughter of mites is the key. . But how?

http://www.apimondia.com/congresses...t the individual level - ROSENKRANZ Peter.pdf

need to see the full paper to see if they eliminated potential temperature and humidity effects and the biblography to see if they even read the humidy paper.

 

[Finman]

That "treat or die" argument does not hold water.

That treat or die argument was invented by Dishmop. No one else.

If you know something about bees, you should know that varroa has not killed bee colonies nowhere. Even honey yields are the same year after year.

If you have read news, USA has lost its bees allready during 8 years, and every year colony number rises to same level.


But its is quite close what I try to teach.


OK, you do not treat your hives. But derekm, why you want to teach to 2-hive owners, how not to treat hives?
What is the idea?


I know a little bit more about varroa and beekeeping than you. I have lost huge amount of hives and yield for varroa. That is why I again write here.

I just came here to warn youg beekeepers that they should not believe the fairytales which are told in this chain.


Guys who write here "mite does not kill hives" say too, that they have not even seen mites in their hives. - How it is possible.

Not seen the mite, and they know everything about mite?


2 years ago here was a professional guys who had kept bees 30 years.
He lost his every single of his 150 hives in one winter .

Reason was too high varroa load, said the bee inspector who inspected the hives. The guru has 1000 hives.

But try. You just try. Don't calculate anything.

As I have said, Varroa has been in Europe 35 years. It is well known and it is the most reaseached bee disease in the world.


Guys on British Isles. You need not research anything about varroa in British isles, because other countries produce the knowledge what you need there. Only few countries have university level reasearch.

But it is a real shame that 2 hive owners with 2 years experience like to be varroa expert in the most dangerous issue og honey bees. It needs realölöy a bad ego to that.

And accorcing this forum's principles, no one are allowed to stop mad members. This is not an University, like Admin says.

Kill your hives and keep fun. Buy a new colony next year. Sale £300 + rotten combs and frames.

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[Finman]

need to see the full paper to see if they eliminated potential temperature and humidity effects and the biblography to see if they even read the humidy paper.

You really has a large EGO...Well-----go for it.... I know your biological knowledge level quite well.

Swedish University makes very famous beekeeping research world wide and you have balls
to "inspect their studies". Sigh

And those researchers are very practical too in their studies.



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[Norfolk]

...........I know a little bit more about varroa and beekeeping than you.....

Here we go again

 

[Finman]

...........I know a little bit more about varroa and beekeeping than you.....

Here we go again

Yes, you are, not me.

( I just cannot stand that over human wisdom of 2-hive owners)

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[TryingToLetThemBee]

Swedish University makes very famous beekeeping research world wide

That linolic acid signalling piece was fascinating. Maybe (and I'm being about 15% serious) we should be drizzling thymol in olive oil, not oxalic in sugar. And (up to 25% now) maybe that is a mechanism in the essential-oil treatments.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Please try to use some reasoned logic rather than rhetorical devices.

Are they them strange shaped electrical thingies that you can only buy in adult shops?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Finman do you have links to further research of theirs, to answer the obvious questions they would address in further study?
<ADD>Locke's PhD thesis giving the (Darwinian) background to the Gottland population is here http://pub.epsilon.slu.se/9036/1/locke_b_120912.pdf </ADD>

 

[pargyle]

Are they them strange shaped electrical thingies that you can only buy in adult shops?

Come on JBM ... it was just getting puerile and you go and inject some humour ... watch you don't get banned for off topic comments !

 

[user 6228]

...........I know a little bit more about varroa and beekeeping than you.....

Here we go again

I admit I am not beekeeper.
That "The argument treat or die in all circumstances doesn't hold water" does not mean everyone should stop treating. It merely says it's been shown as not a valid argument for everyone to treat.


While I'm not a beekeeper, I am very experienced at reading research papers and somewhat experienced at conducting research and finding holes in wooly and misleading arguments.
A lot of the research on this subject is misquoted and not read in its full context.

From reading that research , If forced to give advice to a new beekeeper with a wooden or bought poly national hive I would suggest they start off by treating because there is a lot of experience and data for those circumstances.(I would rather send them to a beekeeper with more experience in those circumstances)

If someone had a highly insulated hive I would advise caution in using the full dose as it has been found that varoa treatments increase their activity with temperature. In each case I would reflect the knowledge that I have gathered about those circumstances.

We are not treating our bees not because of some "natural belief" but because the dosage, efficacy and side effects for colonies with 4 times the insulation is not documented . On further reading there is a now apossibility it MAY prove unnecessary to treat at all in these hives and management.

 

[Dishmop]

That treat or die argument was invented by Dishmop. No one else.

Argument?

Oh dear. Whats the problem here then? Lost your spade and think you can switch tactics hoping that somebody will give you a hand.....
If I invented it, does that mean you are saying that you never said bees will die if not treated?
might that be because you have never been able to give an answer when asked why they will die? or why untreated bees havent died?

might the inability to give an answer be that you dont know?

At least I try to do harm to varroa.

but you dont even know if your bees have varroa...You dont look.. but you treat anyway because you read a paper that said treatment makes happy bees and happy bees make more honey.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Come on JBM ... ... watch you don't get banned for off topic comments !

I'm safe with this one - thread's gone way off topic already!

 

[Norfolk]

Finman

"Like you, you asked from me Basic Ways to treat mites with oxalic acid, and over night you are able to advice me.

That is the mystery of 2-hive owners. They are over humans, not merely beekeepers."

I think you may have misunderstood something.
I have never ever advised you of anything

I have asked you a question that you didn't answer.

 

[Norfolk]

I admit I am not beekeeper.
That "The argument treat or die in all circumstances doesn't hold water" does not mean everyone should stop treating. It merely says it's been shown as not a valid argument for everyone to treat.


While I'm not a beekeeper, I am very experienced at reading research papers and somewhat experienced at conducting research and finding holes in wooly and misleading arguments.
A lot of the research on this subject is misquoted and not read in its full context.

From reading that research , If forced to give advice to a new beekeeper with a wooden or bought poly national hive I would suggest they start off by treating because there is a lot of experience and data for those circumstances.(I would rather send them to a beekeeper with more experience in those circumstances)

If someone had a highly insulated hive I would advise caution in using the full dose as it has been found that varoa treatments increase their activity with temperature. In each case I would reflect the knowledge that I have gathered about those circumstances.

We are not treating our bees not because of some "natural belief" but because the dosage, efficacy and side effects for colonies with 4 times the insulation is not documented . On further reading there is a now apossibility it MAY prove unnecessary to treat at all in these hives and management.

Derek

I'm not sure what is going on today, I wasn't commenting on anything you said.
I was highlighting something Finman had said, I thought.

 

[Gribbee]

Back to somewhere near the original thread.
Surely the answer to the possibility of bees (feral or managed) becoming Varroa tolerant lies in the areas of the world where Varroa has be around for many many years and not just the 30 odd years it has resided in Europe.

 

[Dishmop]

But it is a real shame that 2 hive owners with 2 years experience like to be varroa expert in the most dangerous issue og honey bees. It needs realölöy a bad ego to that.

I dont see that anybody other than you is professing to be an expert, whether they are 2 or 22 hive owners. Just what is the definition of an "expert on varroa"? Somebody who knows all about it? Not expert enough to find a cure though,, but hey, lets just keep reading papers and getting grants.. we've been doing it for 50 years... just keep buying the chemicals that we have invented....

First you say bees will die if not treated. Now you say that you didnt really say that but that it was me who invented that argument..... but still you go on a critisise beekeepers who dont want to treat by remarks like those quoted above, by insinuating that because they are new beeks (or have one or two hives) that therefore they know nothing about most dangerous issue of honey bees What is that danger? Varroa might kill bees? We know that.
but if you didnt say that bees will die if not treated, is the danger now downgraded to might die?
Because people dont want to treat, or are prepared to find out if their bees will be ok without treating doesnt make them stupid. They are not professing to know everything about it........but that they are prepared to look at methods other than chemicals, which on the face of it is more than you have done because of your quest for petrol money.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Back to somewhere near the original thread.
Surely the answer to the possibility of bees (feral or managed) becoming Varroa tolerant lies in the areas of the world where Varroa has be around for many many years and not just the 30 odd years it has resided in Europe.

I was hoping someone else would answer this as I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but the jump to Apis Mellifera from Apis Cerana ("Asian Honey Bee") only took place in the 60s, it is thought.

But yes, AC may give clues.

See http://eol.org/pages/3203541/details and search on "Philippines".

 

[BeeJayBee]

Back to somewhere near the original thread.
Surely the answer to the possibility of bees (feral or managed) becoming Varroa tolerant lies in the areas of the world where Varroa has be around for many many years and not just the 30 odd years it has resided in Europe.

By treating we aren't giving European bees the chance to become varroa tolerant, but we may be perpetuating varroa that are resistant to all forms of treatment. For example, thymol-based varroacides don't kill all the varroa within a hive. Those that survive could be somehow immune to the effects of thymol. We already know varroa can quickly build up resistance to synthetic pyrethroids, so why do we assume they won't become resistant to anything else because it's plant-based?