Varroa

[The Drone Ranger]

I didn't look in for brood TryingToLeThemBee there might have been some as Jenkinsbrynmair says
It's a bit colder up here so winter starts earlier most years.

Sorry Tom Bick I didn't keep records of the drops during the Apistan

Toby3652 yes I am not trying to make any point here other than if you only have a couple of hives you might have none left in Spring. If you have 40 you can experiment and should still have bees at the end.

If you check out the drops some hives would have looked like there were no varroa there but they went on to drop similar amounts as others with higher starting drops.

There is plenty time this year to do some checks and graphs of your own results for anyone reading
Give us beekeepers something to do in Winter

 

[Dishmop]

Somebody treats thier four colonies has no loses.

Somebody doesnt treat thier four colonies and has no loses.

Does that show anything?

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Somebody treats thier four colonies has no loses.

Somebody doesnt treat thier four colonies and has no loses.

Does that show anything?

Probably not
What I will say is if a beekeeper is sure that's the route they want to go down good luck to them

I would advise any new beekeepers reading the thread to treat for varroa though because that way they will have bees next year

I'm a cautious beekeeper by nature and I only suggest things I would do myself
Good luck with it though Dishmop

 

[pargyle]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...feVMCQ/edit?authkey=CP2F0pIK&authkey=CP2F0pIK
Hi pargyle I don't know if the link to google drive will work but if it does there will be a stacked bar graph of 22 hives from Winter 2008/9
Some of those which might have showed next to no drop still had a fair amount of varroa
Winter is the most effective time to treat and after 2 cycles of oxalic using the evaporator most of the varroa were gone
Collecting all the data in the horrible Winter weather wasn't much fun but it does give a better picture of what was going on. You can zoom in 200% on google for a clearer view
Apologies to anyone I have bored with this stuff before

It's good research and an interesting graph but I have a feeling that there are a large variety of factors that affect the relationship between bees and varroa and we have yet to fully understand the impact of treatment (both past and present) on the bees.

The situation that has come about because of the intractable recommendation 'Treat your bees for varroa or they will die' has led to blanket treatment of colonies, with scant regard for testing. Indeed, I know of many beekeepers who, like you, take the view 'treatment is cheap, therefore I treat, there is no point in testing'.

It's one way of doing things and it is clearly successful (although losses are still witnessed in colonies that are treated and we really don't have any hard evidence to suggest whether these losses are despite treatment or because of treatment).

I have frequently said that, if I had seen ANY sign of varroa in my colony, I would be considering my options in respect of treatment ~ but I haven't seen ANY mites after thorough testing throughout the season ... The only thing I haven't done is hit them with any treatment and I really can't see any mileage in that, at present. I even had the Thymol bought - just in case there was a late show ...

I don't think it makes any difference if you are a new beekeeper with one colony or a 50 year beekeeper with 50 colonies ... whether treatment is necessary for varroa should be a judgement call based on testing and knowledge of your bees. If a new (or old) beekeeper lacks the confidence and ability to make this judgement on a colony by colony basis then, clearly, the 'safe' solution is to treat. I don't have an issue with that .. if it works for you, then fine, just don't attempt to convince everyone that it is the ONLY way - which is sometimes what we see.

I feel comfortable with the decision that I have made, with luck my bees will survive the winter and I will go into spring with a strong and healthy colony.

If they die then I will very sad to let you all know and you are very welcome, at that stage, to say 'I told you so' ...

If they survive, I will be starting my regime of testing again in the spring ... ... and we'll see how they go.

 

[Finman]

.
This debate is as normal as "winter is coming" annually.

There are beekeepers who do not want to learn. They do not learn even if Angels come to tell it.





Bees feed larvae, and then part of brood dies and part of workers' life span is short because their blood have beem sucked.

If the hive looses 20% of its reared brood, it is not able to forage surplus any more.





Varroa has been so long in every country, that every beekeeper should know what it does to hives.


Lets repeat even if you treat your hives:

- treatment is not allways succesfull.
- when you learn how ti do it, you are any more as carefull as you should be, and the mite hits direct behind the tree.
- weathers are sometimes such that treatment is not efficient.

WHAT HAPPENS:

- the winter cluster is reduced, -20%, -50% or.... --> small colony after winter, slow build up, late surplus foraging. You loose changes


- If the hive has queen change in late summer, the mites wait for new larvae. When they finally apper, mites rush into brood. New bees will be dead and when summer bees die, the colony will be totally empty and robbed. Then theb robbers get last mites.

- the colony does not enough healty workers that it manages over winter.




-

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Welcome back, Finman. I was hoping you might join this thread.

 

[Dishmop]

Probably not
What I will say is if a beekeeper is sure that's the route they want to go down good luck to them

I would advise any new beekeepers reading the thread to treat for varroa though because that way they will have bees next year

I'm a cautious beekeeper by nature and I only suggest things I would do myself
Good luck with it though Dishmop

So in fact what you are telling new beeks is that if they dont treat, thier bees will die.

 

[The Drone Ranger]

So in fact what you are telling new beeks is that if they dont treat, thier bees will die.

Only that when I haven't treated the bees died
At that time I could buy a broodbox with bees for £50 and there were bees to be had fairly easily
I haven't any issue with what you are doing dishmop
I expect people will read the thread and decide for themselves
When bees are in short supply and cost a lot of money to replace I would advise caution
Lot's of folk get run over trying to jump on passing bandwagons

there is another long thread on here on the subject
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7975&page=3

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

So in fact what you are telling new beeks is that if they dont treat, thier bees will die.

As a one-hive wonder newbie, what I heard TDR say made perfect sense. What I heard was if you have one hive, losing it is bad so you are forced to be conservative relative to even a two-hive owner. Grandma smoking for 60 years and grandpa not wearing a seatbelt for the same time prove that smoking and no seatbelt do not automatically kill you but do not prove that you are wasting your time giving up and buckling up; the odds, albeit not the certainty, show that's the conservative thing to do. So I treat even though I strongly agree that we have to get to a point where we do not need to. Colony losses being a part of that, fine, but not when I have just one if I can possibly help it.

 

[Dishmop]

Only that when I haven't treated the bees died

What did they die of?

 

[The Drone Ranger]

What did they die of?

neglect

 

[Finman]

.
I repeat: the Most common losses by varroa is reduction of colony size
. That happens in every hive which has varroa.

 

[Tom Bick]

Wrong thread - sorry

From memory the varroa mite is from East Asia and has coexisted with the Asian honey bee Apis Cerana for ever as I understand. They coexist partly down to Apis Cerana has a slightly different brood cycle and they are known to swarm and I think abscond frequently.

The varroa hitched a ride on the backs of a few imported European honey bees in the 1960’s? or even before but the rest is history. It took some time before it arrived on our doorstep perhaps some 20 years ago.

I dont know if other countries have developed strategies to manage hives chemical free given they have had the problem far longer than we have but for sure I bet they have tried.

 

[Tom Bick]

.
I repeat: the Most common losses by varroa is reduction of colony size
. That happens in every hive which has varroa.


S

I describe myself as a bit of a tree hugger but one thing the varroa does to a colony once it has a grip on it is to weaken it and as a result make it vulnerable to other factors that will kill it off.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

They coexist partly down to Apis Cerana has a slightly different brood cycle and they are known to swarm and I think abscond frequently.

<ADD>I understand</ADD> VD can breed in AM worker cells as well as drone, but not in AC worker cells. Maybe that's where we end up. <ADD>Actually, I cannot now source that comment, so be careful with it. They groom more than AM, which provides a defence</ADD> <ADDADD> Here http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-017-1343-6_24 </ADDADD>

 

[pargyle]

I describe myself as a bit of a tree hugger but one thing the varroa does to a colony once it has a grip on it is to weaken it and as a result make it vulnerable to other factors that will kill it off.

+1 ... I'm a bit to the left of mainstream as well and I would like to think that I live my life with a good eye on the environment and what we do to it.

I do recognise the threat from Varroa .. this debate has been had every year and on the face of it falls into two camps ... those who treat and those who don't.

But I think there appears to be a middle ground developing with more people choosing to evaluate their colonies and treat IF NECESSARY.

The further level of debate is about HOW they treat and there is also growing number who would prefer non-chemical, acid or aromatic intervention and there are some interesting perspectives upon how this can be accomplished.

The damage comes at the extremes ... those who treat without regard to the infestation levels and those who don't treat without regard to the infestation levels.

Whilst there are closed minds on both sides of the debate it will never reach agreement .....

As Finman's back on the case I'm bowing out now as the peace of the forum needs to be maintained and as a one hive owner .... well 'nuff said !

 

[Dishmop]

neglect

Meaning?

 

[Finman]

The further level of debate is about HOW they treat and there is also growing number who would prefer non-chemical, acid or aromatic intervention and there are some interesting perspectives upon how this can be accomplished.
!

European Union Varroa Group sieved and tested during years 1998-2006 the best varroa treatment methods. It is 10 years ago. http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/04435/index.html?lang=en

When every year it becomes new beekeepers, they need not start from very beginning.
I have had mites since 1982 when I killed the first my hive for varroa. It is now 30 years from that time. I have lots of experience about that bug.


In Finland varroa treatment advices is about 2 pages. So it has been 10 years. It needs not more.
Everyone decides, if he use them or not. That simple. BUT, every year experienced beekeepers loose their colonies to varroa.

The treatment is simple. You buy thymol pads. The cost is 12 g pads /5 kpl = £12,60.
That is same as Hivemakers recipe.

You may use formic acid too.

So, the cost is £ 2.50/ one box hive.
The cost of formic acid treatment is about £ 1.00/hive when you do your own formic pads.
With that stuff you may loose you skin from fingers and thymol pad is very popular. It is painless.

When feeding winter syrup you put the pad onto frame bars and that is all.

Fig Thymol pad

Fig Formic Acid in plastic pack

Trickling oxalic syrup, but unlike in figure, you need not to split 2-box hive to treat

 

[pargyle]

Welcome back.

 

[itma]

...
But I think there appears to be a middle ground developing with more people choosing to evaluate their colonies and treat IF NECESSARY.
...

This is the current orthodoxy.
The NBU (FER/DETRA) would call it IPM.