Undecrystallisable Honey

[spiderplantman]

Hi all,

Last year I bought 3 hives off another beekeeper, all full of honey and bees (he had to shift quick as his daughter had a bad reaction to a sting). Lovely colonies and we extracted loads of honey out of them. Bonus.

However, the honey we extracted from these 3 colonies granulated very quickly. The honey tastes good and the crystals are very small, so we've been giving it away as gifts etc as it's not like it's a jar of sand or anything. However, a couple of times I've tried to decrystallise a few jars in warm water (between 35C and 40C) for a couple of hours, stirring the water and monitoring temp throughout. It's had a minor effect, but hasn't returned the honey to anything like the clear colour it was when we harvested it. Is this common?

 

[Newbeeneil]

If you want to liquefy you probably need a temperature between 50-60 as per below.
http://www.sheffieldbeekeepers.org.uk/important-temperatures-beekeeping/

 

[enrico]

Yes very common and if you leave it a week it will be back to where you started! I just microwave a jar before use to soften it!!

 

[Curly green finger's]

If you want to liquefy you probably need a temperature between 50-60 as per below.
http://www.sheffieldbeekeepers.org.uk/important-temperatures-beekeeping/

Thanks Neil Im printing this out and it is going on the wall in the bee shed along with all my bee **** and graphs, life of honey bees etc.
Cheers.

 

[spiderplantman]

I read however that if you take the honey above 40C then you're destroying enzymes in it? Does it not also mean it is no longer 'raw'?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I read however that if you take the honey above 40C then you're destroying enzymes in it? Does it not also mean it is no longer 'raw'?

I wouldn't worry too much about that - it's over 60 degrees that the problems start.
I must admit that whenever I hear someone start pontificating about 'raw' honey, I prepare myself to listen to an absolute bag of utter bollicks

 

[spiderplantman]

Ha! Fair enough. You read all these contradictory things and don't know what to believe.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I read however that if you take the honey above 40C then you're destroying enzymes in it? Does it not also mean it is no longer 'raw'?

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...ales-since-lockdown.47041/page-13#post-723001

 

[Apple]

I wouldn't worry too much about that - it's over 60 degrees that the problems start.
I must admit that whenever I hear someone start pontificating about 'raw' honey, I prepare myself to listen to an absolute bag of utter bollicks

Was assured yesterday evening on a rare outing to the local pub... that the ONLY raw honey was from a Flow Hive!

Lady was Australian!

Nadelik Lowen

 

[CaptainCymru]

I wouldn't worry too much about that - it's over 60 degrees that the problems start.
I must admit that whenever I hear someone start pontificating about 'raw' honey, I prepare myself to listen to an absolute bag of utter bollicks

Its a marketing gimmick, I want the man that convinced hipsters Avocado was a better investment than a home to market my clobber

 

[spiderplantman]

Yea, sorry, didn't intend to turn this into a dissection of 'raw' honey, the spirit I meant it in was am I damaging the enzymes etc in the honey if I heat above 40C. Looks from the replies (thanks all) that it's ok to just below 60C? I might try that, see what happens to this honey.
I reckon the guy must have lived near OSR or similar - this honey is desperate to granulate, whereas the honey from the hive I had previously is still lovely, runny and clear.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yea, sorry, didn't intend to turn this into a dissection of 'raw' honey, the spirit I meant it in was am I damaging the enzymes etc in the honey if I heat above 40C. Looks from the replies (thanks all) that it's ok to just below 60C? I might try that, see what happens to this honey.
I reckon the guy must have lived near OSR or similar - this honey is desperate to granulate, whereas the honey from the hive I had previously is still lovely, runny and clear.

My dandelion honey crystallised in weeks this year. I have a jar from 2008 that is still crystal clear

 

[ericbeaumont]

am I damaging the enzymes etc in the honey if I heat above 40C. Looks from the replies (thanks all) that it's ok to just below 60C?

If we accept the Sheffield chart as accurate then 35-40 will degrade honey and 63 will destroy yeasts, so anything above hive temp of 35 compromises quality. Enzyme degradation is best researched more thoroughly than via a forum.

Prep for soft set seeding needs 32, which means that the honey must move; is that enough for your purposes? When I have set honey in a jar then that's the way it stays, because customers want it as it is. I must accept a loss of honey quality when warming a set bucket, but have no option.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I am another that thinks "raw honey" is a bit of a myth and if we are going to present honey to the masses rather than those of us that appreciate honey in its rather muddy state as its crystallising we have to warm it above the accepted "hive temperature" of 35dec C
I think the good thing about the Sheffield list is that it gives the temperatures and the time required at that temp to achieve what you want. It also gives information on the effects of temperature and time on diastase and HMF levels.
I, like curly, have it on the wall of my honey room and I refer to it when I need to prepare honey for bottling.

 

[CaptainCymru]

I am another that thinks "raw honey" is a bit of a myth and if we are going to present honey to the masses rather than those of us that appreciate honey in its rather muddy state as its crystallising we have to warm it above the accepted "hive temperature" of 35dec C
I think the good thing about the Sheffield list is that it gives the temperatures and the time required at that temp to achieve what you want. It also gives information on the effects of temperature and time on diastase and HMF levels.
I, like curly, have it on the wall of my honey room and I refer to it when I need to prepare honey for bottling.

Thing is though the masses usually buy the supermarket junk as they dont know different

 

[Curly green finger's]

I am another that thinks "raw honey" is a bit of a myth and if we are going to present honey to the masses rather than those of us that appreciate honey in its rather muddy state as its crystallising we have to warm it above the accepted "hive temperature" of 35dec C
I think the good thing about the Sheffield list is that it gives the temperatures and the time required at that temp to achieve what you want. It also gives information on the effects of temperature and time on diastase and HMF levels.
I, like curly, have it on the wall of my honey room and I refer to it when I need to prepare honey for bottling.

I think it's a damn good list and I've even photo copied 20 copy's to give to other beeks.
@ Mr captain even this season about 30% of our sales have gone to people that use to buy cheap honey from the supermarket.
Most know more than you think.
Edit: these costumers know I've run out so I've had to recommend some one else.
My point is if the supply is there they will always buy good honey at what ever price, what ever walks of life they maybe.

 

[CaptainCymru]

I think it's a damn good list and I've even photo copied 20 copy's to give to other beeks.
@ Mr captain even this season about 30% of our sales have gone to people that use to buy cheap honey from the supermarket.
Most know more than you think.

Well thats a step in the right direction , hoping it goes that way with everything , people starting ti use local butcher and fruit n veg man.

 

[BugsInABox]

Yea, sorry, didn't intend to turn this into a dissection of 'raw' honey, the spirit I meant it in was am I damaging the enzymes etc in the honey if I heat above 40C. Looks from the replies (thanks all) that it's ok to just below 60C? I might try that, see what happens to this honey.
I reckon the guy must have lived near OSR or similar - this honey is desperate to granulate, whereas the honey from the hive I had previously is still lovely, runny and clear.

Hanging around these parts for about 2 years and from that brief experience I think you won’t get an answer. Dropping pejorative terms might help. Probably hard to argue that any processing of honey results in a change. The unanswerable question (on which many hold strong views) is does that change matter.
For what it’s worth I think it matters if a consumer thinks it does.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Well thats a step in the right direction , hoping it goes that way with everything , people starting ti use local butcher and fruit n veg man.

In some ways covid has helped I meen the amount of people I've seen cuing out side local veg shops when I've been dropping of honey supplies in local towns.
Rather than going to supermarkets.
Same for one of our suppliers that's a butcher in three towns they have done such a good trade.

Hopefully it goes forward in the future I may be overzealous.
We grow and buy as much as we can from local butchers and veg shops these small town shops need all the support.
Plus the quality from these shops has had love and care put into them unlike some of the bigger growers
And suppliers.
Rant over good day to ya!!

 

[drex]

The more you heat honey and the longer the time, then the higher the level of HMF and the lower the enzyme activity. For me 50 degrees is a reasonable compromise

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266469941_The_effect_of_heating_on_honey_HMF_and_invertase