Uncertain how to alter hive...

[stumorph]

You can but when they put them into their national hive the frames will be able to move about too much and can squash bees

Then use a plastic spacer that is not pushed on all the way to fill the gap if its not long enough glue 2 together

 

[pargyle]

Then use a plastic spacer that is not pushed on all the way to fill the gap if its not long enough glue 2 together

I think her problem is more that she can't put her Natiional frames into the Nuc rather than the frames in the Nuc being a bit short for National boxes.

 

[ugcheleuce]

We bought a poly nuc with super and feeder as well as a wooden nuc box. We were assured that they were both 'simplex' which is their version of National sizing. When we got home, sure enough the national frames fitted the poly box without issue... The wooden nuc. doesn't...

If the Belgians use the same Simplex format as the Dutch (and as far as I know, they do, except that they wire it vertically instead of horizontally like the Dutch do), then the the Simplex frame is 435 mm long and has 37.5 mm long ears (though the ones I have in my boxes have 40 mm long ears). According to this page, the National frame is 431.8 mm long, which is shorter. However, the frame you have standing on its head in your post is *longer* than the Simplex frame in the nuc. What kind of a frame is it? I see on that same page that the Commercial is 438.2 mm long, which is indeed longer than the Simplex frame.

Looking at the photo's do you think it is possible to chisel out enough for me to use my national frames instead...

My first thought would also have been to chisel out the missing space from the box itself (although you'd have to chisel very, very carefully).

You're worried about beespace, but from the looks of it the Belgian frames don't respect the beespace either -- there is space between the frame ears and the side of the box, but it's definitely less than 5 mm.

Added:

Do you mind telling me what are the exact dimensions of the frames in the nuc? I'd like to see if I can find out whether the Belgians have a smaller Simplex frame.

Samuel

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why don't you just put an appeal on freecycle for help with ebating the box I know it's not what the site is meant for, but I bet someone local to you would then do the job for a jar of honey?
I'd do it for you if i was local (and had a router )

 

[Queens59]

However, the frame you have standing on its head in your post is *longer* than the Simplex frame in the nuc. What kind of a frame is it?

That frame is actually a national frame - as confused as me yet?? The frames provided are 41.3cm or 16 inches...

To add to the confusion - the Belgian frames do not fit a national BB...but do fir into a WBC BB? I always understood these were the same size! In the WBC the fit properly/snuggly but in my national they rattle!! I am even more thoroughly confused than ever now

I like the idea of freecycle - otherwise I will just have to keep the WBCs I had intended to sell and transfer to them from this box...all a bit academic as we have (as yet) not had a single swarm call!

 

[alanf]

However, the frame you have standing on its head in your post is *longer* than the Simplex frame in the nuc. What kind of a frame is it?

That frame is actually a national frame - as confused as me yet?? The frames provided are 41.3cm or 16 inches...

To add to the confusion - the Belgian frames do not fit a national BB...but do fir into a WBC BB? I always understood these were the same size! In the WBC the fit properly/snuggly but in my national they rattle!! I am even more thoroughly confused than ever now

I like the idea of freecycle - otherwise I will just have to keep the WBCs I had intended to sell and transfer to them from this box...all a bit academic as we have (as yet) not had a single swarm call!

So... BS National top bars are 17 inch (432 mm) Smith are 15.5 inch (394 mm) but the Belgian frames in the nuc box are 16 and a quarter inches(413 mm), exactly half way between.

Shame to throw the nuc box away as it looks quite neatly made. But to be of more use than once it needs to use frames you don't have to go to Belgium to find. I'd use a chisel to cut into the box end because it's what I have, I could even help if I was nearer. A router would be quicker, although corners might still need tidying with a chisel.

I suspect the Belgian frames only fit in a WBC because they use the castellations for a snug hold. The lug ends will have the same gaps as in a national where they rattle on the flat rails. A screw or nail in the lug end protruding about 10mm would fix the spacing for a National box. Not pretty, but you don't have to use them more than once.

 

[ugcheleuce]

So... BS National top bars are 17 inch (432 mm) Smith are 15.5 inch (394 mm) but the Belgian frames in the nuc box are 16 and a quarter inches(413 mm), exactly half way between.

The thing that bugs me is the fact that the Belgian frames fit snugly into the nuc box. This means that these frames are not an anomaly... they are meant to be this size, and the nuc box is meant to go with them. Are the frames in the nuc box the correct height, though?

Can you tell us at which shop you bought them?

 

[drstitson]

as per other threads the nuc can easily be routed to accept either sets of frames. and paired spacers can be glued to the short lug frames if they need to go in a proper nat box.

 

[ugcheleuce]

The wooden nuc. doesn't...the frames provided are all .9cm shorter than national frames...

Mystery solved:
http://www.bijenhouden.nl/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27544&p=163402#p163402

Belgian simplex frames have the same dimensions as Dutch simplex frames except that the ears are shorter. Every few days I learn something new... something that is not written in Imkerpedia.

Next time, make sure they're Dutch simplex.

 

[Queens59]

OK, so Dutch simplex is different to Belgian simplex?? Oooo headache...must-lie-down-...argh BRAIN EXPLODES....

 

[Little John]

OK, so Dutch simplex is different to Belgian simplex?? Oooo headache...must-lie-down-...argh BRAIN EXPLODES....

Just wait until the EU Mandarins hear about this ...

"Harmonisation" will be their cry ! In due course there'll be an EU Directive, running to a thousand pages; there will emerge just one beehive design which may proudly carry the EU sticker; and woe betide anyone who flouts the regulations ...

Even jar labels will need to specify: "Honey produced from an EU-approved hive".

Straight bananas will have nothing on this !

LJ

 

[Queens59]

Shsssss, if we are quiet the bug in the system might not hear us

 

[ugcheleuce]

OK, so Dutch simplex is different to Belgian simplex?

No, they're identical. I mean the frames... they're identical. Except for the length of the ears. In all other respects they're identical. Oh, and except that Belgians wire their frames differently. But other than that, they're identical.

The OP's problem wasn't the frames, though... it's the hive.

 

[Queens59]

Well a combi of the 2 I guess - I could use the frames, but only for a WBC...a very select little nuc box - which isn't ideal; as both of us are finding the WBCs really hard to handle now as we are both disabled. My kit needs to have multiple uses, I thought about spinning clothes in my extractor - but thought the honey wasn't good for the clothes

 

[pargyle]

Well a combi of the 2 I guess - I could use the frames, but only for a WBC...a very select little nuc box - which isn't ideal; as both of us are finding the WBCs really hard to handle now as we are both disabled. My kit needs to have multiple uses, I thought about spinning clothes in my extractor - but thought the honey wasn't good for the clothes

And there was me thinking that I was the only one who tried to make things do more than one job !

You will have more flexibility modifying the hive though ... at least with either plastic spacers or a couple of thin strips of wood to fill the gap at the end of the frames you can still use the short frames in another hive.

 

[Little John]

Queens - it's good that you're able to maintain some good humour over this, but it must be so annoying ...

Those of us with routers and chisels and all the rest of the 'boy's toys' - sure - we'd attack the little beastie, taking a little off here, and a smidgeon off there, until it passed muster. But for the greater majority of folk who purchase a product and (not unreasonably) expect it to be immediately 'fit for purpose' (an expression our politicians seem to be increasingly keen on using, even though it doesn't appear to apply to them !), is it not a straightforward case of 'return to supplier', to be replaced by the correct item ? Is this possible/ practicable/ feasible ?

I can't believe that a responsible supplier would be happy to hear of a displeased customer, due to a mistake in sizes - where these weren't made absolutely clear in their catalogue, sales blurb, or whatever else they produce. And think of the Brownie points they'd gain over here, if it were seen that 'customer satisfaction' was their No.1 priority ...

So - rather than thinking in terms of 'whipping a bit off with a router' I'd be more inclined to talk to them directly, and see what their attitude is.

The bloke-with-a-router-with-a-taste-for-honey can always be a fall-back option.

Good luck

LJ

 

[Queens59]

Little John - Don't think I can take it back...although they are a lovely company to deal with ...
a) I have sealed it
b) They are in Belgium
c) I can't afford to go back for a while

I'll get it sorted - but Freecycle turned me down - got a snotty email saying the site was : 'ONLY to stop items from going into landfill'...now there's a thought...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but Freecycle turned me down - got a snotty email saying the site was : 'ONLY to stop items from going into landfill'...now there's a thought...

Hmm - sounds like your freecycle moderators are right up their own........... self importance - probably because it's East Devon - too close to Dorset asnd alll the Fearnley Witterer nouveau hippy types It would have been allowed in this area as it isn't breaking any rules - no money changing hands, no animals etc........

 

[Queens59]

Mmmm, sounds about right I am afraid...There are areas around here to whom HFW is a demi-god...not one of them though

 

[Queens59]

Thank you to all the wonderful forum members who offered their help (from all over the country)...much appreciated...you know who you are

But - after an afternoon of interesting language...it is done! So many people said I could do it - and my FinL turns out to have a shed full of wonderful equipment...I decided to have a go...

The result: