Abelo 12 frame hive issue

[Erichalfbee]

my main gripe atm with abelo is all the discs in the crown board...i think there are 5 now which keep getting in the way....i think i heard someone on here gluing them down

Don’t use those.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

Don’t use those.

just stick them in a drawer somewhere?

 

[ericbeaumont]

main gripe atm with abelo is all the discs in the crown board

Yes, design disaster.

Best guess is that the Polish designers of the Abelo hive carried over quirks useful to Polish methods of beekeeping (divide the box etc). Abelo must have acknowledged the error because later models had one hole.

Consider this alternative: save your £26.60 for a CB and buy instead their Ashforth poly feeder at £42. The extra £15.40 buys you a feeder for syrup or fondant (turn it over the block), a split board and an insulated crownboard.

£10.50 per job!

 

[Cuckmere couple]

Yes, design disaster.

Best guess is that the Polish designers of the Abelo hive carried over quirks useful to Polish methods of beekeeping (divide the box etc). Abelo must have acknowledged the error because later models had one hole.

Consider this alternative: save your £26.60 for a CB and buy instead their Ashforth poly feeder at £42. The extra £15.40 buys you a feeder for syrup or fondant (turn it over the block), a split board and an insulated crownboard.

£10.50 per job!

yup

good idea....i have two retro maisemore hives which i do something similar with

am still cutting channels in my abelos to allow water to escape too

having said all that...i am a fan of abelo hives i have to say

 

[user 20297]

my main gripe atm with abelo is all the discs in the crown board...i think there are 5 now which keep getting in the way....i think i heard someone on here gluing them down

Yes, design disaster.

Best guess is that the Polish designers of the Abelo hive carried over quirks useful to Polish methods of beekeeping (divide the box etc). Abelo must have acknowledged the error because later models had one hole.

Consider this alternative: save your £26.60 for a CB and buy instead their Ashforth poly feeder at £42. The extra £15.40 buys you a feeder for syrup or fondant (turn it over the block), a split board and an insulated crownboard.

£10.50 per job!

Couldn't those crownboards find use as a travel-screen? A blob of blu-tak or a small strip of foil-tape and the poly circles are secure enough for inspections but still removable for whatever scheme the inventive beekeeper might think of.

 

[JamezF]

Couldn't those crownboards find use as a travel-screen? A blob of blu-tak or a small strip of foil-tape and the poly circles are secure enough for inspections but still removable for whatever scheme the inventive beekeeper might think of.

I don't know about the newer designs, but my (very old) ones have removable plastic grilles in the holes. I've always assumed that was to turn the crown board into a travel screen. You can't leave them in situ however, as the bees will take them as an invitation to do some major propolis rendering.

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

an invitation to do some major propolis rendering.

They do the same to the little slits in the box feeder baffle, once again reminding us (not reached Abelo yet) that bees don't like top ventilation. The SS baffle maybe an expedient way to get the job done, as Lyson use that pattern of steel for much of their extraction equipment, presumably buying it by the lorry-load.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, design disaster.

Best guess is that the Polish designers of the Abelo hive carried over quirks useful to Polish methods

or as usually happens over here, the supplier goes to an event like the spring convention, listens to every one of Finman's favourite 'two hive owners', takes on board every one of their crackpot suggestions/must haves then hedges their bets on cornering the market by lumping every one of those 'improvements' into one design which turns out to be a heath robinsonesque nightmare!! thus by trying to please various small minorities ends up pleasing none.

 

[Newbeeneil]

my main gripe atm with abelo is all the discs in the crown board...i think there are 5 now which keep getting in the way....i think i heard someone on here gluing them down

I trimmed mine and stuck them in with silicone mastic.

 

[Rory Fields]

I love my 12 frame Abelo's, would use them exclusively if wood wasn't cheaper. I've got 30 of the 12 frames and find them great, I rarely move the brood box off the floor but if I need to I just smoke heavily and if necessary, move the floor to a different location for a minute whilst I lower brood box onto it. I think the rebates are far better than the original national Abelo's, the water ingress problem with those was bloody infuriating, had to cut a nick in the runners. If anyone wants to swap any 12 frames for other types of hive I'd be delighted- I've got a couple of WBC's and various used Maisemore poly or cedar hives from different manufacturers. I'm at [email protected] if anyone is up for an exchange!

 

[sean-a]

Ask two bee keepers......

 

[Abelo]

Whether your apiary holds 2 or 22 colonies uniform equipment will lead to smoother working, less stress, greater management fluidity & compatibility and a whole lot more pleasure.

The 12-frame is a way for a business to spread their bets in a niche market and is common practice. For example, if you grew tomatoes and sold only tomatoes you would probably end the week with unsold stock that would rot or cost you to store. The way to maximise return, to make best use of stock, is to diversify and make tomato puree, tinned tomatoes, tomato juice, tomato soup and so on.

I doubt beekeepers asked Abelo to make a hive with one extra frame that had a different footprint to standard BS National, and in which 11-frame wooden boxes without lip rebates would not match 12-frame boxes with rebates.

Ask yourself: what good is one more frame? If the colony needs space, give it a box!

You may see beekeepers using the 12-frame hive and if you're a beginner starting from scratch then go ahead, buy into it (hello, Ian!) but be aware that you are now locked into that manufacturer, the price they choose to charge, and the length of production or time they stay in business.

For these reasons the 460mm square Modified National, specified first to a British Standard in 1946, is the closest we have to a universal British hive system, and the 11-frame Abelo National is the Rolls-Royce of poly National boxes because it is compatible equally with the National cedar box made by EH Taylor 74 years ago, or with a National box made last week from pallet wood to plans on Dave Cushman's A-Z by Sarfraz at number 47, Glyn Road, Barking.

I would encourage you to resist the temptation to follow internet advice or to follow in the footsteps of others, but to hold your own counsel and keep your beekeeping simple and uniform. It is the work you will do with bees and the techniques you embed in your memory that will make your beekeeping a pleasure and eventually a success, and not internet marketing or novelty.


It's not that it's bad, but that it's a seductive offshoot, a diversion, a variation from standard that nobody needs nor demanded, and it will make your beekeeping unnecessarily complex.

Is the Abelo 11-frame box that good? Yes, undoubtedly, every day, all day and for all purposes, and that is the most helpful advice I can give.

Eric

Thank you for your valuable feedback on the 12 Frame hive. We produced this hive after 5 years in the planning and based on customers input and feedback over this time. We took into consideration all the points raised and based this model on the poly hives we already manufacture.

A point raised time and time again by many beekeepers was the constant movement of the hive components which caused concerns and water ingress. This led to the introduction of the plastic rebate in order to help prevent this, forming the much-respected interlocking system. This system was not “demanded” but was organically derived from many requests to simplify beekeeping and provide solutions for issues raised and not in any way, be overly complex.

A great many of our customers have large apiaries and keep bees on a commercial scale thus leading the idea of an extra frame to increase bee space and honey capacity. However, this quickly proved popular among back garden beekeepers and smaller apiaries who also warmed to the idea of an extra few frames per hive.

If as a beekeeper you are concerned about the aesthetics of your apiary then yes indeed you are “locked in” to the 12-frame hive, however the hives are manufactured on a National footprint and you can easily integrate the 11 frame components with the 12 frame hive with the aid of a hive strap they will be perfectly workable.

We are constantly working alongside our customers and fellow beekeepers and strive to continually be mindful of their needs.

We have as you are aware several variations of poly hives and whilst we have extolled the virtues of the new 12 frame hive in our marketing campaign, we will be continuing to offer the standard 11 frames hives giving our customers a wider option when choosing their hives.

Whilst your opinion are valid, opinions bare more weight when they are based on true experience rather than speculation and so should not serve to influence fellow beekeepers.

 

[user 20297]

Eric

Thank you for your valuable feedback on the 12 Frame hive. We produced this hive after 5 years in the planning and based on customers input and feedback over this time. We took into consideration all the points raised and based this model on the poly hives we already manufacture.

A point raised time and time again by many beekeepers was the constant movement of the hive components which caused concerns and water ingress. This led to the introduction of the plastic rebate in order to help prevent this, forming the much-respected interlocking system. This system was not “demanded” but was organically derived from many requests to simplify beekeeping and provide solutions for issues raised and not in any way, be overly complex.

A great many of our customers have large apiaries and keep bees on a commercial scale thus leading the idea of an extra frame to increase bee space and honey capacity. However, this quickly proved popular among back garden beekeepers and smaller apiaries who also warmed to the idea of an extra few frames per hive.

If as a beekeeper you are concerned about the aesthetics of your apiary then yes indeed you are “locked in” to the 12-frame hive, however the hives are manufactured on a National footprint and you can easily integrate the 11 frame components with the 12 frame hive with the aid of a hive strap they will be perfectly workable.

We are constantly working alongside our customers and fellow beekeepers and strive to continually be mindful of their needs.

We have as you are aware several variations of poly hives and whilst we have extolled the virtues of the new 12 frame hive in our marketing campaign, we will be continuing to offer the standard 11 frames hives giving our customers a wider option when choosing their hives.

Whilst your opinion are valid, opinions bare more weight when they are based on true experience rather than speculation and so should not serve to influence fellow beekeepers.

There have been a lot of beekeepers on this forum complaining about this, but I don't think it was the problem that many people made it out to be.
I've got loads of your Mk 2 boxes (they're a fantastic product) and the only times that I see water inside are when I use the shallow roofs that have no overhang. The deep roofs ensure that water sheds away from the outer walls and appear to be universally loved. In any case, the bees like the boxes so much that they accept that little inconvenience of the water, and I haven't seen any bees drowned and they're never thirsty.

 

[ericbeaumont]

point raised time and time again by many beekeepers was the constant movement of the hive components which caused concerns and water ingress

don't think it was the problem that many people made it out to be

No, not been an issue for my 50 and more Abelo double-broods that have gone through winter for the last few years, and yesterday a clue dawned on me: when I put a colony back together, the box rims get a quick scrape.

Consequence of cleaning rims is that gaps between boxes do not occur and water does not enter. Movement of boxes? Not an issue either, because after bees have been in new kit a few days and laid propolis between the boxes, a scrape with a hive tool (takes 8 scrapes and about 10 seconds a box) removes the bulk, and trace propolis is enough to prevent movement.

Beekeepers use techniques of wild variation but a common desire (esp. for those with a commercial motive) is to take a hive apart and back again as fast as possible. This is all well and good, but it brings to mind the subtle difference between fast and quick, a definition understood by the late and very great pianist Jerry Lee Lewis: it's easy to play fast, but far greater skill and technique is required to play quick, and he knew he was quick, not fast.

We've all seen the videos of tyro beefarmers chucking boxes about as if they held grapefruit, and the indifference necessary to close the eyes to what Ian decribed earlier as carnage. Well, they may get the medal for speed when they put it back together, but are probably unaware or indifferent to the alternative efficiency gained from finer points of box management. Squash 19 bees when bunging back a box? Rain will get in.

If my aim is to work quickly and if I want to be in and out of a hive in 5 minutes, the kit must be common and the parts must work cleanly together.

the 12-frame hive, however the hives are manufactured on a National footprint and you can easily integrate the 11 frame components with the 12 frame hive with the aid of a hive strap they will be perfectly workable

This suggestion just ain't going to work for me. For a start, the Abelo 12-frame system is based on a 490mm footprint and not the 460mm National 11-frame footprint, and strategies to deal with this anomaly (and the top beespace of one system and bottom beespace of the other) came up in an earlier thread Using standard supers with Abelo 12-frame poly (top bee space) in which beginner confusion and headscratching tried to resolve the intractable.

Perhaps it is possible to fiddle about and make it work, but that's time and effort wasted unnecessarily for the lack of uniformity, and the purpose of this thread is to point out the differences and enable beekeepers (esp. beginners) to reach a decision.

keep bees on a commercial scale thus leading the idea of an extra frame to increase bee space and honey capacity

Me too, but the idea that one extra frame is going to make material difference to colony or beekeeper efficiency really has no merit and is mere tiddling. How long is one frame going to serve a strong colony in April? Not a lot, and my answer would be to give another box, and then another, and not expect one frame to make any difference at all.

Whilst your opinion are valid, opinions bare more weight when they are based on true experience rather than speculation and so should not serve to influence fellow beekeepers.

I agree, and so give opinion based on experience, but the ominous suggestion that opinions should not serve to influence fellow beekeepers is curious, as it appears to seek to suppress the very purpose of this forum: to exchange opinion and experience.

Long gone are the days when commonality across industries was seen as useful. The original BS National standards were laid down during the Second World War when joint purpose was part of British culture, and beekeeping manufacturers (history, please, to confirm) would have worked together, or at least seen the advantage of selling a standard product.

These days our habits are guided by the Fiat 500, dominated by a culture of individualisation and consumerism. Fiat 500? Last I looked, the customer could indulge itself in more than a thousand interior trim combinations, but while such variety would have no impact on the function of the vehicle architecture, it is self-evident that different designs of beehive will affect compatibility & management efficiency and production & retail cost.

hedges their bets on cornering the market by lumping every one of those 'improvements' into one design which turns out to be a heath robinsonesque nightmare!! thus by trying to please various small minorities ends up pleasing none.

Perhaps JBM makes a good point, and the tail has begun to wag the dog?

 

[Rory Fields]

No, not been an issue for my 50 and more Abelo double-broods that have gone through winter for the last few years, and yesterday a clue dawned on me: when I put a colony back together, the box rims get a quick scrape.

Consequence of cleaning rims is that gaps between boxes do not occur and water does not enter. Movement of boxes? Not an issue either, because after bees have been in new kit a few days and laid propolis in between the boxes, a scrape with a hive tool (takes 8 scrapes and about 10 seconds a box) removes the bulk, and trace propolis is enough to prevent movement.

Beekeepers use techniques of wild variation but a common desire (esp. for those with a commercial motive) is to take a hive apart and back again as fast as possible. This is all well and good, but it brings to mind the subtle difference between fast and quick, a definition understood by the late and very great pianist Jerry Lee Lewis: it's easy to play fast, but far greater skill and technique is required to play quick, and he knew he was quick, not fast.

We've all seen the videos of tyro beefarmers chucking boxes about as if they held grapefruit, and the indifference necessary to close the eyes to what Ian decribed earlier as carnage. Well, they may get the medal for speed when they put it back together, but are probably unaware or indifferent to the alternative efficiency gained from finer points of box management. Squash 19 bees when bunging back a box? Rain will get in.

If my aim is to work quickly and if I want to be in and out of a hive in 5 minutes, the kit must be common and the parts must work cleanly together.


Thus suggestion just ain't going to work for me. For a start, the Abelo 12-frame system is based on a 490mm footprint and not the 460mm National 11-frame footprint, and strategies to deal with this anomaly (and the top beespace of one system and bottom beespace of the other) came up in an earlier thread Using standard supers with Abelo 12-frame poly (top bee space) in which beginner confusion and headscratching tried to resolve the intractable.

Perhaps it is possible to fiddle about and make it work, but that's time and effort wasted unnecessarily for the lack of uniformity, and the purpose of this thread is to point out the differences and enable beekeepers (esp. beginners) to reach a decision.


Me too, but the idea that one extra frame is going to make material difference to colony or beekeeper efficiency really has no merit and is mere tiddling. How long is one frame going to serve a strong colony in April? Not a lot, and my answer would be to give another box, and then another, and not expect one frame to make any difference at all.


I agree, and so give opinion based on experience, but the ominous suggestion that opinions should not serve to influence fellow beekeepers is curious, as it appears to seek to suppress the very purpose of this forum: to exchange opinion and experience.

Long gone are the days when commonality across industries was seen as useful. The original BS National standards were laid down during the Second World War when commonality of purpose was part of British culture, and beekeeping manufacturers (history, please, to confirm) would have worked together, or at least seen the advantage of selling a standard product

These days our habits are guided by the Fiat 500, dominated by a culture of individualisation and consumerism. Fiat 500? Last I looked, the customer could indulge itself in more than a thousand interior trim combinations, but while such variety would have no impact on the function of the vehicle architecture, it is self-evident that different designs of beehive will affect compatibility & management efficiency and production & retail cost.


Perhaps JBM makes a good point, and the tail has begun to wag the dog?

A well constructed and thought-provoking series if points. It's not a major problem for me, as I've only got 4 or 5 of them, but the water ingress is genuinely a problem with the 11 frame Abelo's- at least for me and some others, but in the main I breed for gentleness and disease resistance as a sideliner, so perhaps people with more prolific colonies find that the water ingress is dealt with by colonies that overwinter on 11 frames - I think some of mine, particularly the darker, more amm types that are favoured in my part of rural Northumberland, overwinter in small, frugal colonies (with chalkbrood grrr!), and so I imagine if I were to use remove the outer two frames in each box and replace with SHINS from Thorne, or more usually the cut out feeders from Paynes nucs, the r value would be sufficient to keep the bees healthy and prevent the assocuant mouldering or mildewed outer frames I often encounter only in my 11 frame Abelo brood boxes. It's WBC's I find frustrating- the Abelo 12 frame is absolutely perfect imo, you can even fit 6.25kg of fondant between the thick crown board and thick roof. Wouldn't change them for the world.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Does anyone know why the Abelo 11 frame has the water ingress problem when the standard national wooden hive does not?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Does anyone know why the Abelo 11 frame has the water ingress problem when the standard national wooden hive does not?

I have six and none of them leak

 

[Newbeeneil]

I have six and none of them leak

I used to look after 5 of them and never had a problem but it seems many people do!

 

[Ian123]

We are constantly working alongside our customers and fellow beekeepers and strive to continually be mindful of their needs.

Err……Can I asked who requested the in built water feature

 

[user 20297]

Does anyone know why the Abelo 11 frame has the water ingress problem when the standard national wooden hive does not?

The are only two circumstances where my Abelo boxes gather standing water in significant quantity. Firstly, when I use the stupid shallow roofs with no overhang, that were probably designed to allow denser and more stable stacking when transporting a full hive. Secondly, when the hive is parked significantly off the vertical.

I have only one wooden hive and it definitely lets in water to the extent that parts of it will be redundant after only three seasons. Wooden hives are absorbent, so you may not see standing water. But whilst the water is evaporating from the walls heat will be taken from the hive.

I'll take the Abelo puddles any day.