Uncertain how to alter hive...

[Queens59]

I have often bought bee-keeping kit in Belgium, and it has been cheap and good - and they usually have an excellent English speaker working .
Unfortunately this time, he was on holiday and we struggled slightly.

We bought a poly nuc with super and feeder as well as a wooden nuc box. We were assured that they were both 'simplex' which is their version of National sizing. When we got home, sure enough the national frames fitted the poly box without issue...

The wooden nuc. doesn't...the frames provided are all .9cm shorter than national frames...Looking at the photo's do you think it is possible to chisel out enough for me to use my national frames instead; without altering the bee-space? I really don't want to end up with another set of kit...but if the nuc ever got big enough to go into a full hive I would have a major issue

All bearing in mind that I am a total 'no idea' on woodwork and my OH is too!

 

[itma]

I'm no chippy, but I suspect you'd need to show folks what is going on at the level of the support for the rails, before they'd suggest hacking it about.

I'm going to bet you take a frame with you next time!



What I can contribute is that short-lugged frames (Smith) can be used (as a bit of a bodge) in a National. Need careful positioning by hand and eye ... not good long term, but seen it done.

However, in "Caveat Emptor", Yates does propose the use of short lugged frames, with a (dome-headed) screw partly driven into the bar-end to make it the right width and hold the frame central to the National box.
His idea was to minimise prop on the lugs, but hey, the idea could be reused!



Is "Simplex" really really really just British National, but foreign?
How about their supers?

 

[user 6228]

shortlug national =smith?

 

[enrico]

Beg borrow or buy a router. The job will be done accurately in seconds, by the looks of it the size of the frames are the same so no problem with bee space, just shorter lugs. Rout out the extra from the nuc. It should leave enough not to break.
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Beg borrow or buy a router. The job will be done accurately in seconds, by the looks of it the size of the frames are the same so no problem with bee space, just shorter lugs. Rout out the extra from the nuc. It should leave enough not to break.
E

Seems to be more than enough meat there

 

[Queens59]

Thanks all - I may see if I can hire one as I know no-one who does woodwork...

Itma -Is "Simplex" really really really just British National, but foreign? How about their supers?

I don't know abour really, really but yes, all national frames fit and the supers were the same as our too. The poly box (which they went and hunted for especially for me) is perfect...The nuc we picked up after they waved in the general direction of the pile and said 'they simplex also' but I think someone had picked up from one pile and put back on another... My bad I should have checked...but next time? A frame in my pocket!!

 

[stumorph]

Cant you just reduce the legth of the lugs on the frame???

 

[VEG]

Cant you just reduce the legth of the lugs on the frame???

You can but when they put them into their national hive the frames will be able to move about too much and can squash bees

 

[Queens59]

The lugs don't need shortening...they are too short for a national box Stumorph...routing sounds fun...never done it but I can only ruin the box or cut my fingers off ...right???

 

[VEG]

""""

 

[Queens59]

I take it you chose not to say what you were thinking again Veg??

 

[pargyle]

If you have never used a router then you are going to have fun doing it right with one the first time !! Hiring one is going to cost a bit.

As it's just a nuc what I would do (I assume you have a saw and hammer and nails !) is remove the metal castellated strip. Buy, beg or cut two battens of timber the size of the existing rebate and use them to fill in the existing rebate. The cut some strips of timber the depth of the old rebate and nail and glue them onto the top surface of the hive - the ones either side are going to be a bit narrower than the width of the timber on the walls as you need to allow a bit more space for your national frames to sit in. You could then replace the castellated strips if you want - although I would replace the castellated strips with runners.

SO ... hope that makes sense. If you are not confident about sawing the bits of timber if you give me the dimensions then I will cut some on my bandsaw and post them down to you - all you have to do then is hammer, nails and glue.

 

[VEG]

I take it you chose not to say what you were thinking again Veg??

Yep lol

 

[itma]

shortlug national =smith?

Yes, but the lugs on the nuc frames look longer than Smith.

National topbar is 17 inches long.
Smith is 15 and a half.
So three quarters of an inch difference each end.

 

[BeeJayBee]

All bearing in mind that I am a total 'no idea' on woodwork and my OH is too!

Are there any woodwork classes near you? If so, might it be worth turning up before, or just after, a class and seeing if the tutor can fix it for you?

 

[Queens59]

If you have never used a router then you are going to have fun doing it right with one the first time !! Hiring one is going to cost a bit.

As it's just a nuc what I would do (I assume you have a saw and hammer and nails !) is remove the metal castellated strip. Buy, beg or cut two battens of timber the size of the existing rebate and use them to fill in the existing rebate. The cut some strips of timber the depth of the old rebate and nail and glue them onto the top surface of the hive - the ones either side are going to be a bit narrower than the width of the timber on the walls as you need to allow a bit more space for your national frames to sit in. You could then replace the castellated strips if you want - although I would replace the castellated strips with runners.

SO ... hope that makes sense. If you are not confident about sawing the bits of timber if you give me the dimensions then I will cut some on my bandsaw and post them down to you - all you have to do then is hammer, nails and glue.

Ok fill in the rebate, so the top of the box is just smooth? Then get lost by depth (idiot here) do you mean top to bottom of the rebate or back to front?
So I end up with bumpy tops? If so where would I put the runner? I think I had better wait for daylight when a) I can see the hive b) I won't have so much morphine in my veins...

'Cos I is very very confused

Beejoyful - I was told after a month of woodwork at secondary school that I was a risk to myself and everyone else...I was evicted and only sewing would let me go back !! I think the only place that does it locally is 20 ish miles away, might be possible...maybe if the OH is in a good mood...

 

[pargyle]

'Cos I is very very confused

I'll try again:

1. Make two pieces of timber the size of the rebate where the frame ends sit. (You will have to remove the castellated strip but they are just nailed in place usually).

2. Nail/glue these two pieces of timber in the existing rebates so that the top edge of the hive is now fllush all the way round. Effectively you are creating a new top edge to the hive.

3. You now need to make four peices of wood to fit on the top edge of the hive. Two of the pieces will be the same width as the existing hive walls, two of them will be narrower. The two full width ones are nailed to the top edge of the hive sides parallell to the frames and the two narrower ones get nailed to the sides where the end lugs of the frames sit so that you have created a new rebate (ledge) for the longer National frames to sit on.

4. Replace the castellated strip or buy a couple of runners from Th*s to replace the castellated strips for the frames to sit on.

There will be a slightly larger bee space at the bottom of the hive because the National frames will sit a bit higher up in the hive but it just means you might find that the bees build a bit of drone comb under the bottom bar of the frames.

If I was nearer I'd do it for you in five minutes but the best I can do is cut the timber for you if you let me have the critical measurements.

 

[Queens59]

Oh right! I get that one!! Let me look at it and see if I can do it or not - if not I may take you up on your lovely offer...Thank-you for your donation to 'Help an Idiot Day'

 

[pargyle]

Oh right! I get that one!! Let me look at it and see if I can do it or not - if not I may take you up on your lovely offer...Thank-you for your donation to 'Help an Idiot Day'

Having spent two years learning how not to build a hive I now have a degree in modifying the thing that I made that doesn't fit the other thing that I made ! You have my sympathy as I am not good with measuring things ... 90% of the time it works - 10% disaster !

If it gets difficult for you to do the saw bit then I have circular saw, band saw, radial arm saw and a planer - it's literally a five minute job to cut some bits of timber up for you - got loads of offcuts so it's not a problem. (As long as you can measure that is !!)

 

[Queens59]

I'll try my hardest....off to look now!!