Uncapped honey and super removal

[ShinySideUp]

I thought I'd go in and take one of the supers off and have my first go at honey extraction but I found that only half the cells on each frame are capped although all contain honey. How long should I wait until I can be sure all the cells are capped?

Also, my bee books say to remove all the supers in August, should I not leave one in each hive for winter food? I heard that if I do, I should put them under the brood box, is this correct?

 

[Uncle Betty]

I thought I'd go in and take one of the supers off and have my first go at honey extraction but I found that only half the cells on each frame are capped although all contain honey. How long should I wait until I can be sure all the cells are capped?

Also, my bee books say to remove all the supers in August, should I not leave one in each hive for winter food? I heard that if I do, I should put them under the brood box, is this correct?

You don't necessarily have to wait until a frame is 100% capped. If it's roughly 3/4 capped and passes the shake test, it should be ok.

Because I would rather know for sure, I bought a refractometer.

Some people extract the lot, and then for winter pile sugar syrup into the bees so that (Amm in National BB) the colony has c.40lbs of food to overwinter.

After you extract and treat, hopefully they'll have a decent go at the ivy anyway.

As I understand it, yes, 'super' of food goes below, should you choose to leave them something for themselves. 'Nadiring' is the term I believe.

They start there and over the course of winter work their way up which means less headroom to be heated, and the nadired box as a windbreak.

 

[Dadnlad]

You shouldn't need a super on over winter if their 14x12 box has sufficient stores frames

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you are leaving a super of food for the bees over winter it goes on top of the brood with no queen excluder between them. It's where the bees naturally put their stores. If you have a bigger brood such as a 14x12 then there is enough space in that box for all their winter stores.
The purpose of putting a shallow underneath the brood is to get the bees to move any stores inside UP into the brood box. A lot of beekeepers use this method to give uncapped honey they can't extract back to the bees. You can leave this box on over winter but the bees quickly empty it and it will remain empty. Some beekeepers get uncapped stores back to the bees by putting the super on top of the brood separated by a crown board with a small hole so that the bees rob the honey down.....horses for courses, it's never worked for me.

 

[colinc]

Last winter I nadired uncapped supers and by spring they were empty but the comb was brittle and trashed with mouldy pollen. As a result the bees had to tear down the old comb and rebuild it before they used it to store honey. This year all my hives are double BB nationals and they will over winter on those alone. They already have loads of stores in them. Hoping O don't get too much unripe honey in the supers after the end of August.


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[Erichalfbee]

Last winter I nadired uncapped supers and by spring they were empty but the comb was brittle and trashed with mouldy pollen. .


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I'll second that. I have always left the nadired shallows on but last winter the frames were all mouldy.
This year I will leave them a week or two then take them off

 

[Uncle Betty]

If you are leaving a super of food for the bees over winter it goes on top of the brood with no queen excluder between them. It's where the bees naturally put their stores. If you have a bigger brood such as a 14x12 then there is enough space in that box for all their winter stores.
The purpose of putting a shallow underneath the brood is to get the bees to move any stores inside UP into the brood box. A lot of beekeepers use this method to give uncapped honey they can't extract back to the bees. You can leave this box on over winter but the bees quickly empty it and it will remain empty. Some beekeepers get uncapped stores back to the bees by putting the super on top of the brood separated by a crown board with a small hole so that the bees rob the honey down.....horses for courses, it's never worked for me.

Thanks for clarifying that, I've made a hash of regurgitating another post I read on here recently.

Should have checked that first. Sorry OP !

 

[colinc]

Thanks for clarifying that, I've made a hash of regurgitating another post I read on here recently.



Should have checked that first. Sorry OP !

The point of nadiring the super is ,if you haven't gathered, that if you leave a super on top with no excluder by spring you will need to clear brood back from super to brood box. Do not leave the excluder in because the bees migrate up and will leave the queen behind below the excluder to die.

Just to avoid the major pitfalls


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[JWF]

I've nadired supers for the last two years and they've had brood in them by the first inspection, even in that position. I'm in the SE and they've barely had a brood break in both years, you might find differently if your climate is different.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I thought I'd go in and take one of the supers off and have my first go at honey extraction but I found that only half the cells on each frame are capped although all contain honey. How long should I wait until I can be sure all the cells are capped?

Also, my bee books say to remove all the supers in August, should I not leave one in each hive for winter food? I heard that if I do, I should put them under the brood box, is this correct?

As it's 2017 and honey refractometers are readily available, give accurate indications and can be bought for very little money (mine was less than £15) I strongly recommend you to buy one from Ebay. You can readily check the honey water content with that.

The all supers off in August doesn't fit all circumstances or locations, however if you are using autumn thymol based treatment and you don't take hives to the heather it's a useful guide.

There will most likely be some stores in the brood box but if you remove all the supers containing ripe honey and extract it (some do, some don't) you need to ensure the colony has adequate stores to overwinter. Straight sugar syrup without any marketing hype works perfectly fine but adding some Hivemakers recipe to stop fermentation is to be recommended. There's also late natural forage such as ivy.
During winter in a natural (feral) hive bees would have stores above their cluster and the cluster would move upwards as the food is consumed. If you leave a super on top of the brood box take out the queen excluder or the bees may move up to follow the stores, leaving the queen trapped under the excluder to perish.
Be aware that removing the excluder in this manner will, in spring, yield a colony in the top of the hive (the super) and the queen will start to lay eggs up there so you will have brood in your super. (not the end of the world but some people are squeamish about honey from brood cells)
By Nadiring the super in Autumn the bees will move honey up into available space in the brood box where it is closer and warmer. The nadired super box may initially hold excess stores but it will be emptied first. By leaving it on it forms a natural wind break, stopping eddy currents of cold air.
Remove it in a timely manner in the spring or an expanding brood nest may intrude into your super comb. Erichalfbee has suggested taking the nadired box away after a few weeks which will preserve the comb but loses the windbreak effect.
As with all things bee there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Uncle Betty]

The point of nadiring the super is ,if you haven't gathered, that if you leave a super on top with no excluder by spring you will need to clear brood back from super to brood box. Do not leave the excluder in because the bees migrate up and will leave the queen behind below the excluder to die.

Just to avoid the major pitfalls


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Appreciated, and thanks.

 

[Amari]

As it's 2017 and honey refractometers are readily available, give accurate indications and can be bought for very little money (mine was less than £15) I strongly recommend you to buy one from Ebay. You can readily check the honey water content with that.

Erichalfbee has suggested taking the nadired box away after a few weeks which will preserve the comb but loses the windbreak effect.
As with all things bee there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Erichalfbee, if I understand her correctly, argues against my usual practice: in September I feed syrup into a super above the bb and when it is capped in October I nadir this shallow below the bb (no QX of course). Over winter the bees move the stores up into the bb so that the shallow is invariably empty in spring and thus is ready to use as a super for the spring flow. If I leave the super with capped syrup above the bb over winter it invariably still contains some syrup stores come spring - this super is thus not usable for the spring flow.
Erica argues that I am giving the bees unnecessary work in having to shift the stores upwards - but they don't seem to complain!
Actually, following advice on this forum, I am increasingly overwintering on double-bb, so no need for a shallow.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Erichalfbee, if I understand her correctly, argues against my usual practice: in September I feed syrup into a super above the bb and when it is capped in October I nadir this shallow below the bb (no QX of course). Over winter the bees move the stores up into the bb so that the shallow is invariably empty in spring and thus is ready to use as a super for the spring flow. If I leave the super with capped syrup above the bb over winter it invariably still contains some syrup stores come spring - this super is thus not usable for the spring flow.
Erica argues that I am giving the bees unnecessary work in having to shift the stores upwards - but they don't seem to complain!
Actually, following advice on this forum, I am increasingly overwintering on double-bb, so no need for a shallow.

Part of the original question was
Also, my bee books say to remove all the supers in August, should I not leave one in each hive for winter food? I heard that if I do, I should put them under the brood box, is this correct?


Although there is no mention of the size of the brood box as there is the issue of where to put stores for the bees I rather presumed the brood was a BS Nat and that brood and a half might be the way to go next spring so leaving the shallow as a super would be neither here nor there.
My association run B1/2. The shallow is on top in the winter and moved under in the spring.
Putting a full capped super under a brood in October seems to be a little OTT, I must admit as you bring it up but I didn't suggest it in my post.
I wonder how quickly they empty it. Do you think they keep nipping downstairs whenever they fancy a snack? I bet that shallow is empty in a week but I'll happily be proved wrong.
As for a baffle in winter, my floors are deep, hive stands high and brood boxes are 14x12. Also I would hazard that very little turbulence reaches the cluster through an OMF .
I hate losing comb to mould so mine will be off as soon as they are empty

 

[ShinySideUp]

It seems to me that there are more horses for more courses than one can shake a stick at. If I could, I would try a mathematical approach to feeding bees in the winter but the only drawback is that I need to know how much honey a single bee would consume in a given time with a given temperature and I don't suppose anyone knows this with any certainty.

 

[Amari]

Part of the original question was
Also, my bee books say to remove all the supers in August, should I not leave one in each hive for winter food? I heard that if I do, I should put them under the brood box, is this correct?


Although there is no mention of the size of the brood box as there is the issue of where to put stores for the bees I rather presumed the brood was a BS Nat and that brood and a half might be the way to go next spring so leaving the shallow as a super would be neither here nor there.
My association run B1/2. The shallow is on top in the winter and moved under in the spring.
Putting a full capped super under a brood in October seems to be a little OTT, I must admit as you bring it up but I didn't suggest it in my post.
I wonder how quickly they empty it. Do you think they keep nipping downstairs whenever they fancy a snack? I bet that shallow is empty in a week but I'll happily be proved wrong.
As for a baffle in winter, my floors are deep, hive stands high and brood boxes are 14x12. Also I would hazard that very little turbulence reaches the cluster through an OMF .
I hate losing comb to mould so mine will be off as soon as they are empty

A little confusing Erica! From your previous posts I realise that your Association runs B1/2 but that you run 14x12 - quite a difference when it comes to autumn feeding: 14x12 = no need for shallows.
I've no idea if the nadired shallow is emptied in a week - of no importance to me.
I can't remember ever finding nadired shallows mouldy in spring

 

[ShinySideUp]

So if I have 14 x 12 frames I am unlikely to need to leave a super (nadired)?

 

[Amari]

So if I have 14 x 12 frames I am unlikely to need to leave a super (nadired)?

Agree

 

[Erichalfbee]

I can't remember ever finding nadired shallows mouldy in spring

Yes strange.....I have emptied honey I can't use into the brood box by putting the shallow under for a few years. This last winter was the first time I had mouldy combs.....and so many of them!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Yes strange.....I have emptied honey I can't use into the brood box by putting the shallow under for a few years. This last winter was the first time I had mouldy combs.....and so many of them!

No further comment necessary

 

[For want of a better word]

Last year we still had supers on and being capped right up to the Honey Fair which is in the first week of October... beekeeping friends North and East of Cornwall were well into their winter feeding... My own suspicion is that perhaps these beekeeping Bibles were written in the first half of the last century and the "when to" dates were cut and pasted into modern editions?

Some remove fully capped super frames and set aside for extraction, placing either already extracted frames or foundation to the outsides of the super..... which worked for me when I had just a few colonies.
In the Lynher Vally there is plenty of forage.... Bramble is still in flower with RBWH and meadow sweet, Budlea and wild honeysuckle, still providing a nectar flow... the Himalayan balsam seems to have been removed in swathes from the Tamar Valley by the ANOB/ Environment Agency, or whoever is responsible for the eradication process...and not replaced with anything else of use to bees!!!
You can feed invert late into the season and the bees will take it down and store it for winter... but do not overdo it as the bees will fill every space and not leave anywhere for the queen to lay!
I would ask your local SBI for the best advice on Varroa treatment... hope you have your colonies registered now on Beebase.

Yeghes da