Two Queen Conundrums - Advice, please

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Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
332
Reaction score
307
Location
Loughborough
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
11
So (at the worst possible time of year from a bee management perspective), I knew that, due to holidays and other commitments, there was going to be be a big gap between my previous inspection (May 18th) and the next one (today) - 23 days. Unfortunate, but that’s life occasionally.

As such (and whilst I appreciate that gap is untenable from a swarm management perspective), I wanted to make sure, on 18/05, that my two production colonies had been very thoroughly appraised in terms of queen-rightness, brood health, stores and supering, and signs of swarming.

Both hives have 2017 queens, and although from mongrel stock and fairly swarmy by nature, I was not anticipating any real tendency to swarm from either, this season.

Hive 1 - is/was very prolific (BIAS on 8 14x12 frames at 18/05, including large quantities of eggs and very young larvae), and having seen play-cups the week earlier, I noted that two of the 5 new play cups they had built in the interceding week, up to 18/05, had been laid into (they had eggs only - no grubs/royal jelly). Rightly of wrongly, given the time I was going to be away, I decided to do a pre-emptive AS … so Hive 1 was moved to one-side, and the Queen and bit of brood and some stores were moved into a new box in the original location (let's call that Hive 3).

Hive 2 - had aaaaaargh … started to build some proper-looking QCs (i.e. they were formed as more than mere cups, and were in locations, at the bottom and side of the frames, which looked swarmy) - but NONE of these were had been laid into. I have never seen such fully formed QC structures completely empty. Anyway, as they were empty (and, frankly, as I did not have any other spare kit immediately to hand), I decided to throw caution to the wind, and leave them as they were.

So, today, I have two conundrums:

A) Hive 1 - I was hoping (and expecting), after 23 days, to return and find a laying Queen * … or - more likely - a virgin Queen. Having been through the box three times, I did not see one, and I am usually pretty good - even with unmarked Queens. (Yes, she might have been on her mating flight, or have been gobbled by a swallow etc…). BTW, there was massive fanning (a sign of Q-?); but the hive temperament was good, save for a couple of nasty followers (which I also often see, in case of Q-). No stress … I will try a test frame. However, what concerned me more is that on NONE of the 9 original frames was there ANY sign of this colony having built ANY emergency QCs from which a new Queen would have emerged (again, I know the bees could have torn down the cell(s), but I would have expected to see some trace). Is this possible ??? … i.e. that, deprived of a Queen, and with plenty of eggs and young larvae, a colony does NOT try and rear a replacement ??

(Hive 3, BTW, was all tickety-boo, with my original yellow Queen)

B) Hive 2 - Brilliant … good call. There were no signs of any fresh/recent play cups in the brood box; the original yellow Queen was there, busily laying-up frames, and she looked normal (i.e. no signs that she was being slimmed-down). So how and why on earth, in the SUPER, did I find a single, charged QC - being busily fed by one or more bees ? Any thoughts on how this could arise ?? There was a trusty, framed wire queen excluder between both. As my own instinct is that this is not a swarm cell, I just tore it down … but not before I had taken a pic or two:

QC1.jpg

QC2.jpg

Any ideas as to what the heck has given rise to this, please ?

Thanks

(* Which I think I am right in saying is possible if everything went really quickly (from e.g. a 4-day old larva; 12 days to hatching / 5 days maturing / 1 day mating / 2 days sperm storage - so c.a. 20 days at the very, very earliest)
 
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1) I have had Q- colonies where they did not attempt to raise an emergency queen, even with lots of larvae.

2) I think that sometimes workers move eggs around.
 
I bet that queen cell had a drone larva in it laid by a worker
Stick a test frame in and come back and tell us what happens.
 
Hive 1 - You most likely have a virgin in there that has not started laying yet - only 11 from emergence built from 1 day old larvae.
Hive 2 - Not that unusual to have a QC in super. Worker policing slipping up and it won't be viable as it will be a drone. I don't believe in workers moving eggs. Eating them yes.
 
Any eggs or young larva in hive 1?

If not young brood/old brood/no brood?

All useful things to look for and sure you did, just not mentioned in your post.

Good luck with them.


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Hive 1 - You most likely have a virgin in there that has not started laying yet - only 11 from emergence built from 1 day old larvae.
Hive 2 - Not that unusual to have a QC in super. Worker policing slipping up and it won't be viable as it will be a drone. I don't believe in workers moving eggs. Eating them yes.

I'm on the other side of the fence... I am sure bees move eggs. I've had eggs appear in empty cups at the bottom of frames (when hive Q-) which have gone on to become fully charged and emerge as a good ripe queen.
 
I'm on the other side of the fence... I am sure bees move eggs. I've had eggs appear in empty cups at the bottom of frames (when hive Q-) which have gone on to become fully charged and emerge as a good ripe queen.

Hi Roola,
Where do the eggs come from if the hive is queenless?
 
I'm also convinced that Workers move eggs, Iv'e seen it twice, once as above post where there was a lovely looking Q cell on a Super frame which I harvested and incubated, she emerged and is now in a Nuc, and the second time which has me convinced was as follows.

I set up some grafts and added them to the strong Q- starter, they took them down? the following week so a full seven days later I moved some more material into it, only this time as I couldn't get back to move the larvae I experimented with just the eggs in cups, (Nicot kit) this colony was checked and definitely Q- with no eggs present and had been for over 14 days, when I returned the following weekend there were Q cells doted around on the comb!
so where dd they come from, for even more evidence the colony used as a starter are all stripey Buckfast, the eggs were from a dark well natured prolific queen, I took a few of these Q cells and incubated them, all queens were very dark.
is that proof enough?

just on another note, I too have had a hive that refused to draw cells from a donor frame, eventually I found a non layng queen which had been doing a fantastic job of hiding from me.
 
Thanks all.

Re. Hive 1
maybe I missed a virgin, but I will try a test frame and let you know. Hopefully, if they were previously disinclined to build any new QCs, and there is no Queen ... a la ...

1) I have had Q- colonies where they did not attempt to raise an emergency queen, even with lots of larvae.

... then hopefully, they will now be in an increased state of 'emergency' and will crack-on. To clarify:

Any eggs or young larva in hive 1?
If not young brood/old brood/no brood?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

- (apart from single-digit numbers of old drone cells on the cusp of hatching), there was no worker brood in any stage in this hive, and no eggs.

Re. Hive 2
Interesting to know this can happen. Whether a moved (fertilized) egg or a drone (laid by a worker), I still find it hard to read why they were inclined to do this at all. Not swarming behaviour, and not classic supersedure. Is it just "one of those things" ??
 
I would have thought the eggs were already in there and you missed them, as I must have done myself last week as I was presented with a capped QC today on my 7 day inspection schedule. Why bother with emergency cells if there are queen cups to lay in?
 
on NONE of the 9 original frames was there ANY sign of this colony having built ANY emergency QCs from which a new Queen would have emerged

Perfectly possible - in fact, probable, been into hives more than once with new queens but no sign of old QC's.
21 days is far too early to be worrying about the absence of a new laying queen, virgins are notoriously difficult to find.
The worse thing you could have done was to go clattering around looking for her. Just leave them in peace to do their thing.
 
virgins are notoriously difficult to find

In Wales, I understand that may well be the case :) ... But, in all seriousness, you have a very valid point, JBM. I am prepared to see how it goes with these (test frame or not); just a bit perplexed as to why I can see no visible signs of them having raised said Queen.
 
Some colonies tear the QCs down after emergence.
 
Well, just a quick update on my (possibly) Q- Hive 1.

I thought I would hold off adding a test frame for a week - mainly as I am learning both that patience is a real virtue in this hobby, and that (even though we all do have real Q- situations, DLW etc... from time to time), colonies which can, will invariably sort themselves out without our cack-handed, and often too-hasty, intervention.

Also, I was reluctant to donate a brood frame from a production hive, if I did not need to.

Well, today, Queen seen (a bit on the small side), and she is laying at least three frames, where I can see eggs and grubs (no capped brood yet), in a nice pattern.

Phew !!! Thanks all
 
Also, I was reluctant to donate a brood frame from a production hive, if I did not need to.

Good to know you have laying queen. Minor point.but you can always return donated frame to original hive....minus any Q cells of course...
 

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