Two queen colonies

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i'm just about to have ago at rearing a q/c or v/queen atop a working body. The object of the system is to give support to the new upper queen once she is laying, by having an abundant source of food / heat / nurse bees from below

the box divider is a piece of 25mm eps foam, in one corner ( approx 1/3 in from each edge ) is a 35mm sq hole with plastic q/e mesh cut to suit and glued into the hole. this should separate the q's from fighting, and the smallish apperture will keep the q/ pheromones to a minimum


if your after honey , best way would be to remove the queen, a the right time (which is ???? ) NO queen ... = ... NO brood and NO brood ... = ... no wasted nectar on hungry babies
 
if your after honey , best way would be to remove the queen, a the right time (which is ???? ) NO queen ... = ... NO brood and NO brood ... = ... no wasted nectar on hungry babies

Somehow this doesn't seem quite correct. I've heard it lots of times, but have to question the wisdom of removing the queen so the colony will produce MORE honey.
 
Somehow this doesn't seem quite correct. I've heard it lots of times, but have to question the wisdom of removing the queen so the colony will produce MORE honey.

Timing,.... when is the main flow ? ... for how long ?
if you dispense with the Q, it'll take around 30 +/- days before the hive is up and running again, so not only do you reap 30 +/- days of honey, but a new Q as well to winter over, mmmm ... maybe i'm totally totally wrong
 
I will be able to sell honey even cheaper than my cheapest competitor.
Are you racing for the bottom?

a new Q as well to winter over
Removing the queen at the beginning of a major flow is a guaranteed way to demoralize the bees and cut the honey crop drastically. If it is a 2 queen colony and one of the queens is eliminated, leaving the other, then there is potential gain to the crop.
 
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That is funny question. First two queen is best and then zero queens is even better.

I have nursed 30 years hives so that I take the queen off for 2 weeks. Often the colony lost its motivation to work. I gove up from that , and at least yields have not become worse.
 
if your after honey , best way would be to remove the queen, a the right time (which is ???? ) NO queen ... = ... NO brood and NO brood ... = ... no wasted nectar on hungry babies

In practice you'll get emergency queen cells and a colony that will be waiting for a new queen.
 
Derek read posts 1 & 6, two different versions one to produce honey, the other to harvest brood, both 2 queen systems under the one roof. Not just to reduce heat loss.

But what is its mode of action to produce those goals? I can't see what else but heat rentition is going on to benefit to the bees.
 
But what is its mode of action to produce those goals? I can't see what else but heat rentition is going on to benefit to the bees.

I am not disputing the heat aspect, you have narrow, space saving chimney effect breeding. Just take a step back and enjoy the bigger picture. :D
 
I am not disputing the heat aspect, you have narrow, space saving chimney effect breeding. Just take a step back and enjoy the bigger picture. :D

I can see it makes one wall approximately adaibatic (jargon for zero heat loss). But the same total heat loss and shape can be achieved with poly nucs.
Is there anything else that would give an advantage over poly nucs?
 
A queen can lay about 2000 eggs per day. For brief periods of time, she may be able to lay 4000 eggs per day, but most queens can't sustain this rate very long. This means that once the colony stabilizes, at least 2000 bees are hatching and 2000 bees are dying daily. Since most adult bees in summer live about 36 days, the maximum population of the colony will peak somewhere under 72,000 bees. Multiply 2000*36 to get this number. Now think about this a bit and figure out what happens if bees live up to 7 days longer. Now we have 43 days times 2000 bees hatching daily which gives a peak population of 84,000 bees.

Think of bees that just emerged as "fat" bees with lots of reserves. Feeding brood consumes these reserves depleting a limited resource thereby reducing the life span of each bee. This is where short lived "summer" bees come from. Long lived "winter" bees expend much less energy feeding brood and can live 5 or 6 months. Reducing the time a bee spends feeding brood increases that bee's lifespan so it can forage longer.

With 20,000 bees in a cluster, almost all of them will be required in the hive tending brood. Bees that forage under this paradigm will mostly collect pollen. In early spring, it is typical for 80% of the foragers to be pollen collectors or to collect both nectar and pollen if they can. The net effect is to severely limit the amount of nectar a colony can collect from early spring flows such as maple and fruit bloom and to reduce the lifespan of most workers in the colony because they are feeding brood.

By placing two queens and therefore two clusters of bees into a single hive, they share heat so that about 10,000 of the 20,000 bees in each cluster are now able to forage. Foraging bees don't consume as much of their stored energy as nurse bees therefore they live longer and they start foraging a few days earlier than if they had been needed as nurse bees. Extending the life of bees in a colony in spring by just one day means 2000 more bees in the colony. In addition, the pollen needs of the colony can now be met by a much smaller proportion of the foragers. This means more of the early spring foragers will collect nectar which can turn otherwise underutilized nectar flows into major honey producers.

There is one more effect that comes into play with two colonies. If they can share workers through a common space such as through an excluder, nurse bees will move to where they are needed most. This means the strongest laying queen will have abundant nurses even if her colony started out with fewer bees. This is why most two queen systems are set up so workers can freely move from one cluster to the other through an excluder.

Put it all together and a two queen colony uses less physical hive components, has longer lived bees foraging for nectar, can take advantage of early spring flows, and does this while balancing the nurse bee population according to need.
 
I can see it makes one wall approximately adaibatic (jargon for zero heat loss). But the same total heat loss and shape can be achieved with poly nucs.
Is there anything else that would give an advantage over poly nucs?

OK a wooden national brood box can have 2 five frame wooden nucs on top without too much problem. This is what is on the market now. When it comes to poly you would be hard pressed to find a poly nuc with a detachable floor that would sit on top of a poly brood and fit. Nothing stopping you trying the nucs underneath, but some of the poly boxes interlock making it difficult to fit. The other way of doing it is to build it from scratch. The only advantage is that you can utilise what is on the market made of wood for those without very good diy skills. But otherwise, you can make your own design using wood or poly.
 
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But Fusion. You do not have time to move your hives to better pastures where you get 100kg/hive .

80 000 bees. You have 10 langstroth boxes in pile.
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You will never be rich.
 
Somehow this doesn't seem quite correct. I've heard it lots of times, but have to question the wisdom of removing the queen so the colony will produce MORE honey.

This is how the laying gap is used in Italy, as well as for varroa treatment.

The queen is caged, so that she cannot lay. At some point there will be no capped brood and that's when the varroa treatment is done, usually by dribbling.

At the same time, since there will be no brood there will be little need for nurse bees, so you'll have a lot more foragers. If the laying gap is timed correctly you get a good harvest at the end of the season with a good boost of foragers, and the queen is released in time to lay the winter bees.
 
And kept where, if still in the same colony, then she is not being removed.

She is not removed, correct, but her only function* (laying) is stopped.
I was just explaining how removing a queen would increase the honey yield. Obviously by actually removing the queen you are doing an increase only in the short term**, and after that the workers will start dying and you're in trouble.

I was simply explaining how removing the queen could improve the honey yield, even if only short term and with detrimental effects on the colony.

* Okay, maybe not her only function, you know what I mean...

** And of course, as long as they have viable eggs/larvae, the workers will try and make a new queen. The beekeeper could break up any queen cell the bees make if that's the route that is chosen, but as I said above then there will be trouble.
 
* Okay, maybe not her only function, you know what I mean...

I find the same as others have found if the queen is completely removed, often some colonies go into a kind of "sulk" and collect far less honey, some almost stop working.
 

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