Treatment Free

[pargyle]

Sorry for the battery of Qs here.
But isn’t the harm potentially the continuation of less resistant lines?

You've picked up a random post in reply to another ...

I don't treat my bees for varroa - however, I'm not particularly selective and I don't worry unduly about proliferating bees that can't withstand varroa - my view to some extent is that bee genetics at local level with open mating are almost impossible to control. I like to keep queens that produce strong healthy colonies and I have a mix of home bred and bought in queens. The only thing I won't tolerate is agressive colonies and they (the couple that I've had over the years) do get re-queened. My colonies produce large numbers of drones and I let them ... if they want drones they can have drones - with over 100 apiaries within a 3km radius of my apiary it's going to be a very varied mix of drones. A queen will want to mate with the highest flying, fastest flying drones and by definition these will be the healthiest - and those are obviously the drones I would want my queens to mate with.

 

[john w]

I have been re-reading Michael Bush’s thoughts on natural comb and treatment free, in his book The Practical Beekeeper. His experience is very persuasive, but I’ve not plucked up the courage to go that route yet, largely because I don’t want to affect other folks bees if I get it wrong, or if there’s a transition to undergo.
His experience with smaller boxes is tempting too, after knurdelling back muscles after heaving full brood boxes about!
I can’t see mid-Winter OA trickling as a positive experience for the bees either.

Hi, I have followed Mike Bush's way of keeping bees for the last 9 years. Myself and a bunch of locals all use small cell and it seems to work for us. I got fed up with pouring the chemicals and did no get into beekeeping to do that. I am not anti chemicals but would prefer not to use them. The bees seem to do very well. The three times I have found or caught local feral/wild bees they have all had small cells in their foundation which was really interesting.

The transition to small cell takes time but I think it pays dividends in the end and is sustainable. It is not dependent on mating regimes or specific types of bees. I like it. I hope the bees do too!

Great forum
john

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My colonies produce large numbers of drones and I let them ... if they want drones they can have drones

Which is why, in my opinion (and many others too) the practice of drone culling in any form is an unwise and retrograde move, we are already hearing tales of more poor matings and queens quickly running out of juice. Drone culling has got to be a contributory factor and does nothing apart from narrow the gene pool and can lead to weak queens and colonies.

 

[pargyle]

Which is why, in my opinion (and many others too) the practice of drone culling in any form is an unwise and retrograde move, we are already hearing tales of more poor matings and queens quickly running out of juice. Drone culling has got to be a contributory factor and does nothing apart from narrow the gene pool and can lead to weak queens and colonies.

I've only ever uncapped a few drone brood to check for varroa ... I've never considered the practice of drone culling for varroa control as one I felt good about. I hadn't even considered that reducing the drone population was something genetically detrimental in a more global aspect. There is something about colonies when they produce drones that we don't know enough about ... the recognised 'wisdom' that they are freeloading layabouts who just eat the stores does not sit well with me. Bee colonies are to a great extent mercenary ... they would not tolerate drones if they did not, in some way, contribute to the overall success of the colony. There's something we don't know about in this equation ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bee colonies are to a great extent mercenary ... they would not tolerate drones if they did not, in some way, contribute to the overall success of the colony. There's something we don't know about in this equation ...

Didn't something come out last year about drones singing to the brood in sealed cells?

 

[pargyle]

Didn't something come out last year about drones singing to the brood in sealed cells?

Yes .. I think they can only sing 11th century madrigals though ... more of a chant ... perhaps accompanied by bagpipes ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes .. I think they can only sing 11th century madrigals though ... more of a chant ... perhaps accompanied by bagpipes ?

I thought it was they never learn the words so just hummed it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Didn't something come out last year about drones singing to the brood in sealed cells?

Yes it’s from Jacqueline Freeman’s “Song of Increase” she’s a bit of a nutcase. It’s available in Audiobooks too. Maybe she knows the song and sings it there?

 

[pargyle]

Yes it’s from Jacqueline Freeman’s “Song of Increase” she’s a bit of a nutcase. It’s available in Audiobooks too. Maybe she knows the song and sings it there?

I know a local commercial tomato grower who plays classical music to his tomato plants - swears that they grow faster, have less disease and give better crops as a result...perhaps the bees know something we have not yet cottoned on to ? Perhaps piped music into my hives will be my next experiment ...

Suitable suggestions about what may be appropriate would be appreciated ....

 

[RichardBeeW]

Hi, this is my first post but I’ve been very enjoying reading the posts here for a few weeks now. On the subject of not ‘chemically’ treating tor Varroa - but definitely not doing nothing - I thought those who haven’t seen this series of 4 videos on the subject might like to begin with No3 which is, if you like, the how to video.
This comes from someone I would class as a top expert as he has been tasked by the EU, if I remember correctly, with studying this subject in the field across several countries including the U.K. Anyway, I hope you find it as interesting and informative as I have.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi, this is my first post but I’ve been very enjoying reading the posts here for a few weeks now. On the subject of not ‘chemically’ treating tor Varroa - but definitely not doing nothing - I thought those who haven’t seen this series of 4 videos on the subject might like to begin with No3 which is, if you like, the how to video.
This comes from someone I would class as a top expert as he has been tasked by the EU, if I remember correctly, with studying this subject in the field across several countries including the U.K. Anyway, I hope you find it as interesting and informative as I have.

The National honey show has lots of very good videos on YouTube.

 

[Moobee]

In the short time I've been beekeeping I've seen a definite inference from postings on many Facebook groups that some sort of treatment for verroa is inevitable. So much so that I think many new beekeepers just open a packet of "something" at a certain time of year, leave it for a while and then follow up with another packet of "something". The key thing that some of them will be missing out is knowing how bad their problem was (if indeed they had a problem!), how much treatment they should have used and what was the outcome of the treatment.

As a consequence it seems a good idea to me to closely monitor for pests and diseases with the intention to use as little chemical treatment as is necessary to eliminate a problem. The gold standard would be to manage without treatment. If you can keep problems to a tolerable minimum without treatment and your neighbour needs chemicals to achieve the same; who is the better beekeeper?

completely agree. my mentor advises constant monitoring and treating IF NEEDED. so far, ive had very little varroa drop and my bees are happy and healthy. I will assess after the supers come off and take advice on what is needed to keep them that way.

 

[Erichalfbee]

completely agree. my mentor advises constant monitoring and treating IF NEEDED. so far, ive had very little varroa drop and my bees are happy and healthy. I will assess after the supers come off and take advice on what is needed to keep them that way.

Do make sure you measure the bees’ varroa load accurately. Forget natural drop which is woefully lacking and go fir a sugar roll or alcohol wash.

 

[john w]

The whole science of varroa and mite loads within hives is very poorly understood. The varroa calculator on Beebase uses a number of very crude assumptions. For several years I measured mite drop monthly on up to 24 colonies and learnt a lot about varroa within hives. I have lost 1 colony to varroa in 9 years. I think mite drop is an effective and straightforward method of measuring mite loads. It is crude but effective. I would advocate doing this on two separate months as sometimes a one off can provide spurious results

In isolation the mite count is only so meaningful, it needs some crude assessment of colony size. A drop of say 6 mites per day in a large colony is not as worrying as say 5 mites per day in a nuc. I used to weight my to allow for colony size using some fairly straightforward methods devised by the bee inspectors that assess pollinating beehives within the almond industry.

I absolutely agree with giving bees a chance and only treating if necessary. You could be lucky and have bees that are truly resilient.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The varroa calculator on Beebase uses a number of very crude assumptions.

And is notoriously inaccurate.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The whole science of varroa and mite loads within hives is very poorly understood. The varroa calculator on Beebase uses a number of very crude assumptions. For several years I measured mite drop monthly on up to 24 colonies and learnt a lot about varroa within hives. I have lost 1 colony to varroa in 9 years. I think mite drop is an effective and straightforward method of measuring mite loads. It is crude but effective. I would advocate doing this on two separate months as sometimes a one off can provide spurious results

In isolation the mite count is only so meaningful, it needs some crude assessment of colony size. A drop of say 6 mites per day in a large colony is not as worrying as say 5 mites per day in a nuc. I used to weight my to allow for colony size using some fairly straightforward methods devised by the bee inspectors that assess pollinating beehives within the almond industry.

I absolutely agree with giving bees a chance and only treating if necessary. You could be lucky and have bees that are truly resilient.

Natural drop from a personal perspective. Three years ago I had a colony that dropped an insignificant number of mites on the board (I often leave mine in as they sit a good three inches below the OMF and are open at the back). In one month after I started vaping they dropped nearly 8K. The whole thing is well documented here on the forum.

 

[john w]

Yes agreed and understood. I don't treat and now only occasionally count mite drops because I am confident the bees can manage their mite loads. When I monitored I ways always aware that there are many more mites within the colony than just those that fall onto the floor.

What happens in my colonies and many other treatment free colonies, is the bees are able to manage the mites that are present through the many and varied mechanisms those that are successful employ eg recapping, VSH, grooming etc.

As beekeepers we all have to do what is right for us and if it also coincides with what works for the bees then that is great including how we monito and how if at all we treat.

 

[RichardBeeW]

Can we stop judging each other on our style of beekeeping and get back to discussing beekeeping, please.

I would like to hear from anyone who uses foundationless frames. How do you stop the bees building comb across more than one frame?

Positive, helpful comments only please. I'm trying to improve my technique not be denigrated for trying something different.

Hi Amanda,
like you I was hoping to hear how others approach TF beekeeping and sad that yet again discussions like this turn into mud-flinging I have gone foundationless this year with great results. I simply use Hoffman style BNational deeps cut down to 32mm widths from the normal 35mm. On some I’ve just broken off the top foundation grip bar and glued / nailed it back on edge to form a slight ridge to guide the bees. On others I glued lolly sticks into the top groove - easier I find. Both seem to work equally well.
I am very careful to level my hive stands so the wax drops straight down -which it does.
I haven’t had any problems with cross-comb though have had two combs on one frame a couple of times where I left them too far apart after queen cell introductions but let them complete the wild section then cut it off and secured it into an empty frame with elastic bands - the bees very quickly secure it.
I personally find it hard to believe but Roger Patterson (YouTube him) suggests the bees are following lea lines? when they do this and you could try rotating your hive to accommodate them. Who knows
I’m based in mid-Wales for reference
Richard

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi Amanda,
like you I was hoping to hear how others approach TF beekeeping and sad that yet again discussions like this turn into mud-flinging

Strange, I thought for once it was a (reasonably) civilised discussion, especially after we got rid of the trolling tag team

 

[charentejohn]

Hi, I have followed Mike Bush's way of keeping bees for the last 9 years. Myself and a bunch of locals all use small cell and it seems to work for us. I got fed up with pouring the chemicals and did no get into beekeeping to do that. I am not anti chemicals but would prefer not to use them. The bees seem to do very well. The three times I have found or caught local feral/wild bees they have all had small cells in their foundation which was really interesting.

The transition to small cell takes time but I think it pays dividends in the end and is sustainable. It is not dependent on mating regimes or specific types of bees. I like it. I hope the bees do too!

Great forum
john

I remember the OP was on commercial TF keeping and I mentioned Scot McPherson earlier in this thread. He has a facebook page with a lot of his videos (there is another place he does keeping info too but can't find it) Log into Facebook | Facebook

Thought I may as well do the whole lot rather than individual links. For the small cell size see the video 'How cell size affects the health of your bees' with a neat idea about small cell = shorter time till emergence = less varroa.

For general why to let bees do it their way and make money see the video 'Good genertics or good bees ?' where he explains how he builds an apiary quickly using strong bees. Really worth a watch regardless.