Treatment Free

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If someone came up with a treatment that didn't harm the bees as well I would use it when needed but haven't found one.

Plenty out there
Oxalic acid vapourisation, thymol in its various guises......

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sadly true but things are improving, as they say the drugs don't work they just make it worse If someone came up with a treatment that didn't harm the bees as well I would use it when needed but haven't found one.
Worth looking at Scot's videos as he keeps saying we have to talk about it, he pointed out that a lot of new people are put off joining clubs or groups because they can't say the TF word. He mentions that new keeper's hives can die out because they have no person (mentor) to help as they don't like TF. Sadly true as beginners (like myself) can use help with problems in general. More mixed clubs would be nice, but unlikely.

On reflection, knowing how a lot of members feel and how these threads have developed in the past I think a section would be a blight on the forum. There are plenty of groups on Facebook

 

[pargyle]

Oxalic acid by sublimation does no harm to the bees whatsoever... there is no residue left after a few hours ... it kills mites with about 90% success if you do it in a brood break ... it's as cheap as chips and the bees don't seem to mind it ... if I had a colony that was overburdened with varroa I would not hesitate to use it... I have used it on other people's hives
S

 

[pargyle]

On reflection, knowing how a lot of members feel and how these threads have developed in the past I think a section would be a blight on the forum. There are plenty of groups on Facebook

Yes unfortunately some people can only see what they want to see in those of us who manage to get by without treatment and it only ends up with unpleasantness so ... I've no problem with the occasional thread or answering questions but I can do without the sniping and derogatory remarks that inevitably it degrades into. A whole section for treatment free beekeeping is not necessary and may arrract more attention than anyone would like...

 

[charentejohn]

Sorry to have reistated this, just wanted to pass on the video from Scot for those who are interested. Those not interested don't have to look at it ?
No TF section required as, sadly making Scot's point, there can be no real debate and as said TF people will have to go underground. Sad but true.
Not entering into a debate on chemical treatments but Oxalic / Formic etc are not harmless to the bees, how can they not harm them ? Marketed as natural they are still toxic especially if not used correctly. I would consider treating my new bees for the first year just to get them into normal swarming / brood breaks etc as they came from a treated background. But as Scot points out I could use say formic in a minimal treatment but nobody used to using it would want to help me, so I won't bother as too risky giving it my best guess.
You could lock the thread I guess. I am in france the land of treatments and they can have very reasoned debates there, I was surprised and pleased by that.

Main problem is people can't be allowed to discuss their preferences in peace. I would be happy to keep out of treatment options debates as I have nothing to contribute. Would be nice if people who do treat would keep out of TF debates. Not going to happen though is it as the sides are so entrenched.
I have other questions unrelated and will post them as and when and will try to keep off this one unless really needed. I have a couple of TF groups I can ask questions on.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oxalic / Formic etc are not harmless to the bees

Your opinion - scientific evidence gives a different story. Try reading the paper from the University of East Sussex for one.

 

[charentejohn]

The link to the article you said is here (from 2016) but much has been researched since then. Scientists determine how to control parasite without harming bees I am no fan of using university etc as irrefuable proof becuase they are reliable acdemics. Things change, the article states that vaporisation is the best, I am always amused by people missing the elephant in the room, which is that trickling Oxalic is toxic, this isn't. Not sure that can be true, it must be toxic just amounts and controls that make it safer, but who is that well organised, one mistake....
Professor Francis Ratnieks, head of LASI, says that beekeepers should cease using the other two methods ("trickling" and "spraying", in which a solution of oxalic acid is used) as they are harmful to the bees and less effective at killing Varroa.

This, near the end gives the risks of using and especially misjudging such chemicals. Methods to Control Varroa Mites: An Integrated Pest Management Approach Tit for tat internet saearches can go on forever.

There is no point continuing this discussion so I will stop now. Nothing personal as we all know this always degenerates into this 'my source is better than yours' and the ever popular 'why won't you admit you are wrong'.
I asked about 'low level' treatments on a TF (more or less) group and got a reasonable reply. They agreed, for me to do a one off treatment if needed, formic may be best done at a below recommended level. The idea being it helps as nothing is 100% effective. That was a good response I thought as they believe in no treatments.
I will stick with my belief in TF if that's ok. I had bees in a box (not a hive) near me for 7 yrs who were just fine, swarmed regularly etc. If you manage bees , splits brood swaps etc you may well need to do something, hopefully I won't.

 

[pargyle]

I've never felt the need to keep my position in not treating my bees for varroa a secret on here ... I'm not an evangelist seeking a platform or trying to encourage others to follow my path ... indeed most of the time you will find me discouraging people ... it's fraught with risk and you can't just let your bees get in with it. If you are a beekeeper you have to keep your bees and good husbandry in a TF situation is essential. I don't mind reasoned debate and I can take the criticism.... but all too often some unpleasant characters in the past have just used these threads to be disparaging. So ... carry on the debate ...but don't expect to generate converts or get approval from anyone... tell us your reasons and what you hope to gain ...if it works or if you end up with huge mite loads - be honest ...I haven't had time yet to look at the video but I will. There are a lot of beekeepers on here raising queens from their best colonies and selecting for a variety of positive traits ... the bees ability to live alongside varroa is just one of those. As for OA ... it's been proven to my satisfaction that in application by sublimation it is effective, harmless to the bees and as natural a product as you could wish for ... Formic acid is pretty vile by comparison and is less effective and more disruptive to a colony.... I'm a little confused that Formic should be accepted as a natural treatment and yet OA isn't ? Discuss away ...

 

[bobthecob]

Also interesting that some of our feral colonies could also be surviving which I have always been told is due to repopulation of the same site by new swarms and that there are no feral colonies.

Having observed a local tree-colony with an entrance at ankle-height (so its health can be easily seen) I can confirm that there are indeed feral colonies that survive for years on end. How frequent that is is another question. There is another tree cavity near me which is occupied by a swarm each year but never seems to survive the winter (I suspect it is too small, looking from the outside).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Having observed a local tree-colony with an entrance at ankle-height

What! another wild colony with a bottom entrance!?
And as for the term feral - as Tom Seeley pointed out in a talk earlier this year, we haven't domesticated the honeybee, just persuaded some of them to use our boxes. They're all wild, even the ones in hives, not feral
I have a colony in an old hollow oak tree outside one of my apiaries (another bottom entry) which to my knowledge has survived at least four seasons without intervention, and still going strong.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

It’s a shame that views become so entrenched. I for one would welcome reasoned debate about the pros and cons of TF, so perhaps I could get to a place where pumping gas would be a less regular requirement.
My first experience with a chemical treatment taught me that the bees were happier hanging on the outside of the hive rather than in it, on a very warm day!!
Since then I’ve used OA vape successfully, but have been very curious how, one hive out of four, in a row could have a huge mite load/ drop, whilst the others had few.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That’s easily explained by the bees robbing collapsing colonies. Some years (maybe three) ago I had one colony that dropped nearly 8K mites in a month of repeated oxalic. It’s documented here somewhere. They had 7 vapes before I gave up and put in Apivar. I did count every mite too. I was horrified by the initial 24 hour drop. The thing was that they were super heavy having more honey than the others and looked in good nic. It was a while before I tumbled to what was happening. In the end I shut the entrance, caught a few hundred bees and did a sugar roll. They were infested! So they were robbing and bringing back honey and varroa. Since then I have always done an accelerated drop with OA a month after treatment finished. The rest of the hives were fine and this one survived the winter.
The other thing to remember is drifting. If you have your hives in a line the most downwind one always seems to have more varroa.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Food for thought, thanks Dani

 

[user 6228]

Yes agreed, BUT naturally bees build down - so they utilise the comb for brood, then they build new comb below, and then then fill up the recently vacated brood cells above with stores and build down. Logically nadiring makes more sense you would always have new comb for brood, honey would be in older comb on top and easy to rotate out-no need for older cruddy comb.
My guess is that its just easier for people to organise things rather than follows the bees lead - anyone ??

but the reality of a tree nest is that its likely to have been occupied then abandoned then occupied many times for decades or hundreds of years. So its part of the bees instinct to make efficient use of what they find . The way they occupy a brand new empty void isnt as straightforward as you might think. Even in new 40 litre tree shaped cavities some colonies start half way up (those colonies werent very successful).

 

[happyculteur]

Which raises the question for this and some other problems. Do we overpopulate our apiaries?

 

[happyculteur]

I was referring to robbing and drifting but type very slowly.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Which raises the question for this and some other problems. Do we overpopulate our apiaries?

Yes

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Which raises the question for this and some other problems. Do we overpopulate our apiaries?

In general, I don't think so, it's more general ignorance. People assume that treatment free means do nothing, it's not the case. Bees don't rob well managed healthy colonies, they rob sick ones, and there lies the problem.
People assume an outdated, inaccurate and incorrrectly written publication is the 'gospel', that is not the case
People chant the same mantra, unchallenged and unchecked from generation to generation, and because they can quote the 'gospel' label themselves as experts.
When it's not the case.
Unfortunately, some beginners listen to these and follow them and perpetuate the error, some just give up, whilst others think for themselves, plough their own furrow and become good beekeepers, but because they don't hold the piece of sacred paper get maligned

 

[Erichalfbee]

In general, I don't think so, it's more general ignorance. People assume that treatment free means do nothing, it's not the case. Bees don't rob well managed healthy colonies, they rob sick ones, and there lies the problem.
People assume an outdated, inaccurate and incorrrectly written publication is the 'gospel', that is not the case
People chant the same mantra, unchallenged and unchecked from generation to generation, and because they can quote the 'gospel' label themselves as experts.
When it's not the case.
Unfortunately, some beginners listen to these and follow them and perpetuate the error, some just give up, whilst others think for themselves, plough their own furrow and become good beekeepers, but because they don't hold the piece of sacred paper get maligned

I’ve never had my bees rob each other but I had 12 in a row once and the one at one end had lots more varroa than the one at the other. Lots more bees too.
And I have a leave alone beekeeper a mile away. I know that’s not the same as TF but that is how he describes himself.

 

[happyculteur]

In general, I don't think so, it's more general ignorance. People assume that treatment free means do nothing, it's not the case. Bees don't rob well managed healthy colonies, they rob sick ones, and there lies the problem.

I agree that treatment free must be very carefully planned and certainly not doing nothing.
Do bees not rob healthy colonies? My bees are well adapted to their situation. Right now they have chased off the drones, and are going into winter preparation. An itinerant beekeeper had put his colonies about 2km. away. They were busy feeding on the wild lavender. This dried up and he didn't come and collect his colonies for a few days. They were not preparing to winter and smelt out my hives and came in. My bees fought them off ,but at a price. Obviously some got in before I could reduce the entrance. I think there is more to this than just sick or healthy bees.