Treatment Free doesn't work

[Beesnaturally]

Well yes but what is it that's working?

If your success is due to a fortuitous convergence of not understood ecosystem events then it'll be hopeless for others to try to replicate? How do I get week mites and viruses without understanding what you did to get them, especially if the bee phonotype improvement suggested would tend to result in stronger pathogens not weaker. Could it be that you're lucky but attributing the benefits of that luck to some sort of intervention?

I did outline one part of what it is.

John Kefus stresses the point through an analogy: that to feel safe travellingon a plane, you don't need to know how it works. You just needs to know THAT it works.

Most of us can bake a cake - or could, just by floowing a recipe. We don't need to understand the multiplicity of chemical and bio-chemical reactions that are going on in the mixture.

Simple genetic husbandry is what got us the incredible range of fruit and vegetables, the high-value grains, and the bewildering range of domestic species. It was done, for thousands of years, by people following a imple rule, people who had no inkling of the mechanisms.

You can ask unnecessary questions. When the recipe is on the table you can just get on and make the cake.

It does seem to me that this hive ecosystem approach is something to ponder though. It could explain a lot of the variation (and conflict/scepticism) that's seen when people fail to replicate claimed effective treatment free approaches. I guess the first step would be know if, as a result of some intrinsic maladaptation of the mites in hives like yours, their r number actually is lower, and whether viruses in hives like yours actually are of lower pathogenicity. These are objective enough to be tested against controls I'd have thought - anyone know if they have been?
BIAB

Certainly, as Beebe has pointed out, it could explain why the quest to find a silver-bullet magic queen has failed.

'Intrinsic maladaptation'? I'd call it simple, predictable, adapting. Its what happens when you leave populations alone. Evolution works: you get small, swarmy 'survivor' colonies, then larger and more stable ones, and finally a thriving natural population.

Yes, there are any number of studies. Prof. Marla Spivak is one of the leaders in this field, and a search for her will quickly throw up resources.

 

[Anduril]

I'll keep that in mind Dana, but... I think you would need a nuc, not just a queen. The reason is you need not just my bee genes, but also my (low fecundity) mite genes, and quite possibly my viruses too.
And of course a nuc is a valuable commodity...

Dani would only need the queen, there is only one criteria to meet and that is more than likely already in place.

 

[user 20297]

Not really... If mites are the problem and the miticide is used correctly then it should solve the problem. Expecting miticides to save a colony with a DLQ would be plain foolishness.

Since the theme subject under discussion is "Treatment Free doesn't work", I assume that most of us assume that we're primarily discussing mites, and not a DLQ.
If your argument is that the failure of a treatment to provide a full remedy can always/sometimes/frequently be attributed to the pre-existence of another, more serious issue, I'll agree with you, but I'll take your argument and apply it to treatment-free....there, we're quits.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Dani would only need the queen, there is only one criteria to meet and that is more than likely already in place.

Yes. This is what a lot of beekeepers want. They want bees they don’t have to treat for varroa. I know first hand from Pargyle that TF is not hands off. There is a lot of work involved. Do I want to do all that? Can I be bothered when my beekeeping is certainly an addiction but only one of a few others?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Dani would only need the queen, there is only one criteria to meet and that is more than likely already in place.

If you wish to take that view, that's fine. Others may like to think about different approaches.

Bringing a resistant queen into an area containing only high-fecundity mites is one choice.

Bringing a resistant queen plus an important part of her defence systems in to the same area another.

 

[Anduril]

If you wish to take that view, that's fine. Others may like to think about different approaches.

Bringing a resistant queen into an area containing only high-fecundity mites is one choice.

Bringing a resistant queen plus an important part of her defence systems in to the same area another.

I'm looking at the science!

 

[Beesnaturally]

Yes. This is what a lot of beekeepers want. They want bees they don’t have to treat for varroa. I know first hand from Pargyle that TF is not hands off. There is a lot of work involved. Do I want to do all that? Can I be bothered when my beekeeping is certainly an addiction but only one of a few others?

I feed, and rotate comb and apart from looking and snatching the odd queen cell (and making nucs), I think that's about it. I'll probably start requeening spotty brood soon.

So no extra work. It is impotant to me that I DON'T HELP THE BEES in their efforts to come to an accommodation with varroa. Because:

To help an individual is to (tend to) cripple the population.

Additionally, I really, really, need to be able to know which colonies can thrive alone, and which can't.,

But I'm not really a beekeeper. I'm an experimentalist fascinated by the state of affairs in beekeeping. I sacrifice a lot (of honey, colonies) in the interest of trying to build a strong self-sufficient population.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I feed, and rotate comb and apart from looking and snatching the odd queen cell (and making nucs), I think that's about it. I'll probably start requeening spotty brood soon.

Do you not monitor the varroa load?

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm looking at the science!

Which science? There is a hell of a lot of it.

Do you mean the science examining the circumstances under which bees thrive unaided? What sorts of things have you learned?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Do you not monitor the varroa load?

Did I mention any monitoring of varroa? I rarely even look for varroa. That's the bees' business not mine.

 

[Anduril]

Which science? There is a hell of a lot of it.

Do you mean the science examining the circumstances under which bees thrive unaided? What sorts of things have you learned?

Post 12, treatment free beekeepers have already taken part in research in England, Wales and the US.

 

[Ian123]

Its what happens when you leave populations alone. Evolution works: you get small, swarmy 'survivor' colonies, then larger and more stable ones, and finally a thriving natural population.

Can you show us a part of the world that has seen this evolution take place,? there must be an abundance of work/research on these areas and the thriving natural population.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Post 12, treatment free beekeepers have already taken part in research in England, Wales and the US.

I'm with you.

That's a PhD thesis, which isn't really science, but: what does it tell you about how bees might be able to thrive unaided?

Does it give an overview of the literature on varroa resistance? That's probably a better place to start.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Can you show us a part of the world that has seen this evolution take place,? there must be an abundance of work/research on these areas and the thriving natural population.

We've had several papers recently detaitailing studies, which foolishly I haven't kept properly. I did get this far, and I have another list or two elsewhere if you'd like them.


https://www.tandfonline.com/.../10.../0005772X.2022.2019377
Journal of Api Research
The influence of genetic origin and its interaction with environmental effects on the survival of Apis mellifera L. colonies in Europe
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3896/IBRA.1.53.2.03?needAccess=true
Geographical Distribution and Selection of European Honey Bees Resistant to Varroa destructor
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/11/12/873/htm

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0005772X.2021.1982569?src=recsys
See letter to Pargyle for link to top paper
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...ntially-varroa-resistant-pol-line-bees.52546/

"mites can change their reproduction when associated with surviving hosts and that the bee behaviors suppressing mite reproduction can vary over time."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...12/2/120/pdf&usg=AOvVaw30nNQ4Y8dC4TNfR0WFMLG0
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2021.2101

Article Host-Parasite Co-Evolution in Real-Time: Changes in Honey Bee Resistance Mechanisms and Mite Reproductive Strategies
Abstract: Co-evolutionisamajordrivingforceshapingtheoutcomeofhost-parasiteinteractionsover time. After host shifts, the lack of co-evolution can have a drastic impact on novel host populations. Nevertheless, it is known that Western honey bee (Apis mellifera) populations can cope with hostshifted ectoparasitic mites (Varroa destructor) by means of natural selection. However, adaptive phenotypic traits of the parasites and temporal variations in host resistance behavior are poorly understood. Here,weshowthatmitesmadeadaptiveshiftsinreproductivestrategywhenassociated with resistant hosts and that host resistance traits can change over time. In a fully-crossed field experiment, worker brood cells of local adapted and non-adapted (control) A. mellifera host colonies were infested with mites originating from both types of host colonies. Then, mite reproduction as well as recapping of cells and removal of infested brood (i.e., Varroa Sensitive Hygiene, VSH) by host workers were investigated and compared to data from the same groups of host colonies three years earlier. The data suggest adaptive shifts in mite reproductive strategies, because mites from adapted hosts have higher probabilities of reproduction, but lower fecundity, when infesting their associated hosts than mites in treated colonies. The results confirm that adapted hosts can reduce mite reproductive success. However, neither recapping of cells nor VSH were significantly expressed, even though the latter was significantly expressed in this adapted population three years earlier. This suggests temporal variation in the expression of adaptive host traits. It also appears as if mechanismsnotinvestigatedherewereresponsibleforthereducedmitereproductionintheadapted hosts. Inconclusion,aholisticviewincludingmiteadaptationsandstudiesofthesameparasite/host populations over time appears overdue to finally understand the mechanisms enabling survival of V. destructor-infested honey bee host colonies.
(In Download)

-------
"It has been shown that virgins very rarely mate with related drones, which reduces the chances of inbreeding, one of the perils to avoid in any controlled breeding scheme. " http://entomology.ifas.ufl.edu/sanford/apis/apis92/apsep92.htm


Drone mother colonies – numbers and positioning
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...459/drone-mother-colonies-number-position.pdf"Best mating success has been reported when drone mother colonies are placed 2 to 2.5 Km away from the queen mating yard" - but see close-mating too

Drone honey bees – rearing and maintenance
https://powell.ca.uky.edu/files/drone-bee-rearing-and-maintenance_002_0.pdf

"Considering the density of colonies around the congregation area and average flight ranges of males, the results suggested that most colonies within the recruitment parameter of a DCA delegated equal proportions of males to a DCA. Consequently, the relatedness of a queen to her mates – and ultimately the inbreeding coefficient of the progeny – should be minimal." Bee Culture

http://www.biobees.com/library/bee_breeding/DroneCongregationAreas.pdf"...drones and queens from the same hive do not choose the same DCA"

 

[Anduril]

I'm with you.

That's a PhD thesis, which isn't really science, but: what does it tell you about how bees might be able to thrive unaided?

Does it give an overview of the literature on varroa resistance? That's probably a better place to start.

Read it, it links in with the Plymouth virologist research with Ron Hoskins and Arnot forest, also showing a map of the UK. It was something like 35 apiaries used and 115 hives tested in England and Wales. Testing should have been done bimonthly but they didn't want to open up in the winter.

 

[Wilco]

Since the theme subject under discussion is "Treatment Free doesn't work", I assume that most of us assume that we're primarily discussing mites, and not a DLQ.
If your argument is that the failure of a treatment to provide a full remedy can always/sometimes/frequently be attributed to the pre-existence of another, more serious issue, I'll agree with you, but I'll take your argument and apply it to treatment-free....there, we're quits.

Great that you're accepting those cases aren't a failure/variable effect of the treatment but you've lost me on the applying it to treatment free?

 

[BugsInABox]

Did I mention any monitoring of varroa? I rarely even look for varroa. That's the bees' business not mine.

Wouldnt monitorign speed up this......

I really, really, need to be able to know which colonies can thrive alone, and which can't.,
I sacrifice a lot (of honey, colonies) in the interest of trying to build a strong self-sufficient population.

I note the present tense. Any figures for the last few years? How do you decide which to cull? (I'm asuming you are cullign not just leaving some to whither.)

 

[Mint Bee]

just because it might work under very specific circumstances we don't understand, how do you convince the majority of beekeepers to try this in working towards the goal of changing the dynamics of the host / parasite relationship?

for most beekeepers being told it might help you in a few years if you let most / all of your colonies get weaker and potentially die off is an act of faith that many wont buy on faith alone - you are talking about absolute treatment free beekeeping rather than intervening when disease is detected and becomes an issue, after all. Going to be an even harder sale to joe public who's been told for years that bees are in danger, but the beekeepers are now going to let loads of them die off to save them in x years.

You are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that has apparently low hive density and an abundance of feral honey bees. That doesn't fit for most of the country. If you could show this works for higher hive density with few to no feral bees as a source of replacement bees then it would be a more reasonable sell. Your approach appears to require a very specific set of circumstances around the local bee / varroa / virus population dynamics. I think that is a pipe dream for most of the rest of us who want to keep all our bees health, calm and non swarmy and sometimes get a half decent honey crop.

Anyway, some of us like to understand how a jet engine or the maillard reaction works as part of the experience

 

[Beesnaturally]

Read it, it links in with the Plymouth virologist research with Ron Hoskins and Arnot forest, also showing a map of the UK. It was something like 35 apiaries used and 115 hives tested in England and Wales. Testing should have been done bimonthly but they didn't want to open up in the winter.

Is there any sort of summary of findings that would be helpful to this thread you could offer?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Wouldnt monitorign speed up this......

I note the present tense. Any figures for the last few years? How do you decide which to cull? (I'm asuming you are cullign not just leaving some to whither.)

I don't do figures. I remember which hives last multi-year, which build up quickly and end up tall.

I rarely cull . I've seen too many go downhill with an old queen only to supercede and come flying back, and I rate ability to supercede well highly. Little annoys me more than hives that perish because they didn't supercede. I'm suspicious that ability to supercede has been damaged by apiary practices.

I think if you decide to do live and let die you have to do it properly. There are other ways, but that was my way.

As the results are starting to firm up I may make small changes designed to get greater yield without compromising self-sufficiency. This is coming up now: I'm adding drone comb to selected hives to try to improve mating. How, I have to ask myself, will that affect those hives? Should I look for mites in the drone cells? If I find strikingly more, or less, in some, how should react to that information, if at all? I don't know yet what the answers to those questions are.