Toxicity of Lime trees

[rwestoll]

I am confused about the lime species which are poisonous to bees.
The BBKA leaflet ' Trees for Bees' lists the following species as suitable for planting:

Medium Sized: Tilia mongolica (Early), Tilia euchlora (mid season) and Tilia miquelana (late flowering)

Large size Tilia maximowicziana (Early) Tilia insularis (mid season) Tilia tomentosa (late)

They also state that Tilia petiolaris (late ) is toxic to bees.

Hilliers manual of trees and shrubs list Tilia euchlora as narcotic to bees and that petiolaris is a subspecies of tomentosa, which suggests that tomentosa is also toxic to bees.

'Trees and shrubs valuable to bees' by M.F.Mountain lists all Tilia species, especially euchlora as being suitable for planting for bees

Wedmore's 'Manual of Beekeeping' warns against the use of tomentosa and petiolaris

Ted Hooper in his 'Guide to Bees and Honey' warns about petiolaris and obicularis and again in his 'The Bee friendly garden' says petiolaris, euchlora, tomentosa and orbicularis are all toxic to a greater or lesser degree.

It looks as if petiolaris and tomentosa are definitely to be avoided, but apparently all limes might be toxic to bees to a greater or lesser degree, differing from year to year.

Does anyone have any definitive ideas and if any more of the 60 species and subspecies of Tilia which are available to buy in this country are dangerous for bees. The reason I'm asking is that I want to plant a grove of limes with as many different 'safe' species as possible.

There are also issues with the toxicity of Horse Chestnuts Aesculus hippocastrum particularly the red flowered ones,Aesculus carnea. Isn't it ironic that two of the most important nectar trees have toxicity issues?

 

[BKF Admin]

When you say Lime is narcotic I do remember reading that the bees get stoned when feeding on some lime and are not allowed back into the hive until sober.

 

[Skyhook]

I suspect the reason there have been so few replies is that everyone alse is as confused as you. I did some reading on this a while back, and a lot of the sources directly contradict each other. In that situation I usually check as many sources as possible, then let them vote- eg if 4 sources say a species is safe and one says it isn't, it probably is. I would say cordata and europa probably are safe, euchlora probably isn't, and that covers 80% of the trees they're likely to encounter.

Part of the problem is the way it works. The bees feed and get slightly stoned. The may fall, or have to land, on the ground. If it's warm, they will probably fly back when they wake up. If it's cold they'll die, so the results will vary from a single tree.

 

[BeeNice]

Hi, you may plant bee friendly plants, you neighbour will plant anything he wishes, your bees will go to the best sourse of nectar. You have no real control over what the bees feed on. As for the Lime grove... good luck and choose well.
regards
Steven

 

[happyculteur]

Lime constitutes my main flow- I have over 100 lime trees within a mile radius of my hives. The poisonous limes are tilia oliveri;t.euchora;t.tomentosa;and t.dasystila, though I believe(without being certain) that their toxicity applies to other bees rather than honeybees. Anyway, there are 2 varieties that are worth planting from a melliferous point of view: tilia platyphyllos and tilia cordata (the large-leaved lime and the small-leaved lime to give them their good old English names.
The flowering period is short, and nectar production fickle-the right conditions are necessary i.e. heat, dryness in the air, and wetness at the roots. But when they give, the resulting honey (which is often a mix of honey & honeydew) is excellent and crystallises very slowly with smallish crystals. Anyway, in the bad years you still have the flowers that you can dry to make a very pleasant *tea*.
Hope that helps.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Anyway, in the bad years you still have the flowers that you can dry to make a very pleasant *tea*.

And you can make an excellent Limeflower "Champagne" similar to the Elderflower variety.

 

[rwestoll]

We too have quite a few large lime trees around and about and have planted Large leaved and small leaved limes around the farm over the past few years. That was even before I got my bees.

I didn't know about T. dasystyla being narcotic.

What I am trying to do is plant the lesser known species which might spread the lime flowering season as suggested by the BBKA leaflet which I referred to. I realise that bees are fickle feeders, but I know the sound of bees feeding on lime suggests that it is a favourite. One beekeeper friend calls limes 'motor bike trees'! Unfortunately the lime here failed to produce much this year - was it to do with the hard winter or the lack of spring rainfall - I don't know.

I'll definitely try the limeflower champagne though

Many thanks for your answers

 

[Gilberdyke John]

We too have quite a few large lime trees around and about and have planted Large leaved and small leaved limes around the farm over the past few years. That was even before I got my bees.

I didn't know about T. dasystyla being narcotic.

What I am trying to do is plant the lesser known species which might spread the lime flowering season as suggested by the BBKA leaflet which I referred to. I realise that bees are fickle feeders, but I know the sound of bees feeding on lime suggests that it is a favourite. One beekeeper friend calls limes 'motor bike trees'! Unfortunately the lime here failed to produce much this year - was it to do with the hard winter or the lack of spring rainfall - I don't know.

I'll definitely try the limeflower champagne though

Many thanks for your answers

Maybe makes sense to plant lime trees adjacent to regularly wet drainage ditches and rivers to increase their chances of water supply?

 

[enrico]

Blimey that's resurrected an old post

 

[Erichalfbee]

Better late than never?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Is rwestoll still around? Be nice to have an update.

Howes' Plants & Beekeeping wasn't mentioned, but has six pages on lime with a little chart showing overlapping flowering periods, and a mention of narcotic species.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is rwestoll still around?

Not for 8 years

 

[peterbees]

Is rwestoll still around? Be nice to have an update.

Howes' Plants & Beekeeping wasn't mentioned, but has six pages on lime with a little chart showing overlapping flowering periods, and a mention of narcotic species.

My favourite beekeeping book for the last 40 years. Every beekeeper should have a copy.

 

[ericbeaumont]

My favourite beekeeping book for the last 40 years. Every beekeeper should have a copy.

The best, without doubt, and written so elegantly.

The other writers who really knew how to use words were ROB Manley and Ted Hooper. When Hooper was updated by others to include varroa, the additions were glaring.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Blimey that's resurrected an old post

I think I've figured out the resurrection - there's a list of "similar threads" now being attached to current ones and í must have not noticed the last date of posting when I replied to one from there. I'm not sure why the list rakes over old coals from so far back though? Are sleeping dogs best left to lie sometimes?