top bar hive

[Brosville]

It's a crying shame, the vast majority of members are kind, open-minded people, who's good nature is being exploited by a few "suits" who run the thing -some local associations are indeed positively encouraging of top bar hives, sadly many aren't - my local one is run by a couple of "hard-liners" who bully the members into "doing it their way"...

 

[victor meldrew]

It's a crying shame, the vast majority of members are kind, open-minded people, who's good nature is being exploited by a few "suits" who run the thing -some local associations are indeed positively encouraging of top bar hives, sadly many aren't - my local one is run by a couple of "hard-liners" who bully the members into "doing it their way"...

Bully! Nag ! no difference in essence ?
VM

 

[Brosville]

In my local association they "hold swarms to ransom" - if you're using a TBH you don't get any (they don't deem them "proper" hives") - they won't even allow discussion of the "pesticide" fiasco, let alone put it to a vote - in my book that's "bullying" (You'd have to be a very strong-minded newbie to not cave into their "ours is the only way" dictum) - a great shame, because the great majority of the members are nice people (sadly, too "nice" to stand up to the bullies)

 

[Skyhook]

My association is a group of very nice people with a lot of knowledge which they are willing to share. Some of the most knowledgeable are some of the oldest, and perhaps a little set in their ways; but I think they've earned that right, and on anything I don't agree with (eg matchsticks under the crownboard) I nod appreciatively, then carry on my own way.

I believe in getting information from a range of sources and drawing my own conclusions- that doesn't mean I'm going to tell another more experienced beek that he/she is wrong.

 

[victor meldrew]

My association is a group of very nice people with a lot of knowledge which they are willing to share. Some of the most knowledgeable are some of the oldest, and perhaps a little set in their ways; but I think they've earned that right, and on anything I don't agree with (eg matchsticks under the crownboard) I nod appreciatively, then carry on my own way.

I believe in getting information from a range of sources and drawing my own conclusions- that doesn't mean I'm going to tell another more experienced beek that he/she is wrong.

Like minded people tend to flock together (Yes aka the sheep )
This is the reason for the inception of societies !
When people subsequently join these establishments (that have been successful for yonks) and start to question the methods taught (At the time of teaching , which is nothing short of bad manners and disrespect for the other class members) the negative reaction is to be expected , as the interruption is often disruptive to the session in progress ?
The old saying "There's none so pious as the recently converted " springs to mind .
Practice alternative beekeeping by all means but the evangelical approach is rightly frowned on by the established members of existing groups .
Do your own thing by all means but spare the silent majority from being hassled at every turn by a very loud minority who demand that theirs is 'The way, The truth and The light '
VM

 

[Brosville]

In my experience it was entirely "the other way round" - a polite enquiry about TBHs was greeted with venom and derision, to even mention the pesticide issue was deemed "way out of order", even though framed as a "why do they accept sponsorship" question - no "evangelism", no "questioning existing methods", just a newbie asking what I still deem to be reasonable questions.
One of the local "suits" was literally spitting mad one week because Phil Chandler had dared to send all the local associations a polite email detailing the pesticide issue, and was accused of being an "eco-terrorist" for his pains!
Believe it or not, I do have deep reserves of tact and diplomacy, and bent over backwards not to be seen as a pushy newbie, but found the attitude of the ruling clique to be rude, oppressive and bullying (totally negating the good vibes from the vast majority of members...)

 

[victor meldrew]

Believe it or not, I do have deep reserves of tact and diplomacy, and bent over backwards not to be seen as a pushy newbie,

Being an old sceptic , I have yet to be convinced ,however your talents as a comedian have me in tucks
VM

 

[itma]

I joined my local BBKA before starting. Now have 5 x TBH and 2 x warre.

The Local BBKA were great: I learned a lot about handling bees/bee behaviour and things to do/not to do. A beekeeper with 60 years experience is always worth listening to.

My local Association are planning to visit my hives next year to see TBHs in action...

Y' see its all a matter of diplomacy!

If your local association is undiplomatic, you can probably find a neighbouring area that is more friendly. And making bee-keeping friends should be a priority for any new/wannabe beekeeper.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I found TBH and Warres openly discussed in positive manner here, mind you get my father on poystyrene hives and you see 75 years of wood coming through I find it is generally how you speak about these things that makes the difference. Our experrienced beekeepers were more than willing to help beginners set up TBHs and a few of us are likely to try other hive types next year.

 

[bee ginnner]

-some local associations are indeed positively encouraging of top bar hives, sadly many aren't - my local one is run by a couple of "hard-liners" who bully the members into "doing it their way"...

That's terrible martin, i hate people banging on about what they THINK is the way to go without ever listening to the other side and rubbishing other people's views

 

[yeogi75]

i think bee keeping is like fishing, it sarted with basic kit couple of hundred quid, enjoyed pleasure fishing, then bang
full blown match angler uk and ireland packed up with three grand of kit
all the pros came around a quid for this a quid for that, a youg lad came for some rods i gave him the lot for 300 quid the look on his face,he came on the bus,dad got the rods great rods can you come pick me up and bring the van,
well we took nearlly a hour loading that van,and the lad kept saying are you sure i can have it all, its the same with beekeeping the simpler it is the better the bug comes later.

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

In my local association they "hold swarms to ransom" - if you're using a TBH you don't get any (they don't deem them "proper" hives") - they won't even allow discussion of the "pesticide" fiasco, let alone put it to a vote - in my book that's "bullying" (You'd have to be a very strong-minded newbie to not cave into their "ours is the only way" dictum) - a great shame, because the great majority of the members are nice people (sadly, too "nice" to stand up to the bullies)

Hi Martin
Sorry to hear this, which is your local association by the way? My local one is Hastings and Rother which I have joined but only gone along to once. My mentor is not a big fan either but knows several of the key people, so we keep ourselves to ourselves and manage pretty well.

Did think about doing the BKKA theoretical study programme but the entry into this is the Basic Assessment - which is done by your local association and requires attendance at meetings, etc which put me off slightly as work would inevitably get in the way.

 

[oliver90owner]

BKKA theoretical study programme but the entry into this is the Basic Assessment

Basic assessment - As a TBHer, you would be aware that (all?) the questions are about framed hives and you would be expected to know all about the different frame sizes, etc and know how much honey you can squeeze into an already full brood frame! Of great importance and relevance to you, I am quite sure!

I would care to make a guess and say the other modules are in a similar vein, but I would only be guessing. TBHs might get a mention somewhere, even if only in passing and/or of a derogatory nature (subliminal, of course).

I now expect the army of rubbish-question compilers to now weigh in with their arguments and explain how pro-TBH they really are - and also to tell me how much honey can be stored is if the frame is already full of brood?

Regards, RAB

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

I think that often these discussions about hive design get in the way of the real issue which is how the bees are managed. I can use National equipment and yet keep my bees in a sustainable way, on the other hand I have seen TBH users managing their bees in quite a 'conventional' way and the bees are probably worse off for it. All hives are basically a box, it is how you manage them that counts. TBH hives are no exception, probably only the Warre hive has a specific management routine associated with it and so could be counted as a sustainable hive. One of the weakness of the TBH is that there is no defined management routine with them and so they can be used inappropriately in which case the only benefit they confer to the bees is the 'free comb' allowed.

So what are we aiming for as 'sustainable beekeepers?
We want to achieve:

• Minimal disturbance of the hive
• Maintenance of the hive aroma
• Natural comb
• Natural population balance between workers and drones
• Over wintering on honey not sugar
• Varroa monitoring and control in the least interfering way

As to price, I would be hard pressed to spend £1,000 on beekeeping equipment. A top of the line, assembled National Hive complete with everything from Maisemores costs £400, add in smoker and suit etc, maybe £500 in total. But if I buy a TBH you are looking at around £170 for a 3 footer (no one seems to make the 4 footers as far as I can see) or £200 for a Warre hive. Of course you can make a TBH if you have the time and tools but then you can do the same for a National. The real cost difference between the two is really the frames and foundation which account for £145 of the cost of the Maisemores hive above.

 

[Brosville]

Couldn't agree more with most of that.
Personally, I'm much in favour of the "least interference is best" way of management - and would concur that much of a "conventional" course focuses on techniques that a natural beekeeper is not going to be using, and in my experience it is very easy for a newbie to be coerced into what I'd call "intrusive management", with all the "delights" of drone culling, queen clipping, marking and replacing, use of smoke, every few days inspections, pinching all the honey and replacing with sugar etc etc....

 

[madasafish]

I am basically lazy so minimalist beekeeping is ideal...for me.. It may also be for the bees as well

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

"intrusive management", with all the "delights" of drone culling, queen clipping, marking and replacing, use of smoke, every few days inspections, pinching all the honey and replacing with sugar etc etc....

STOP! STOP! You are making me feel ill.

So if we were to run a National hive on a sustainable basis this is how would we do it:
* Routine inspections only when needed
* decrease swarming pressure by taller brood box (14x12) and no queen excluder (wider boxes do not seem to do so well, so a Warre 300mm or max National 460 mm width box would seem to be preferable)
* Nadir brood boxes from bottom if needed in Spring for expansion to maintain brrod warmth and aromor
* Add supers at top in summer (brood now being several boxes below top should be safe enough?
* crown board with only one hole and a plug to seal it up when not in use or a solid crown board as we will not be feeding
* restrained honey crop with plenty of honey left (also cluster does not get trapped below a queen excluder)
* use of water instead of smoke
* entrance block with small openings
* use frames without foundation but just with a starter strip. Natural comb really only happens in a Warre hive when used with 'spales' as in Japan. Top bars do place some restriction on bees as we dictate the spacing between combs and their direction, so are not entirely natural. Of course the bees are able to build the comb below the bar as they choose as a free comb which is a huge improvement but the same could be achieved by a frame without foundation. Earlier editions of Warre's book had his hive with frames, half frames and the newer Delon wire support. I am moving towards use of frames as I have been unable to solve the extraction problem, except by the chop up and press and strain method.

Of course most of the above would be considered good practice in a TBH - but the hive itself does not prohibit bad practice, too frequent inspections, small brood areas with queen excluders, loss of warmth and smell through constant openings

Anyone else got any ideas along these lines?

 

[Brosville]

Again, I pretty much concur with most of that - couple of minor points - I have read that "supering" hives can stress the bees into producing "too much" honey, and I've never found any problems with "crush and strain" - it means you're getting "fresh" wax each season, and not allowing "icide" and other build-ups in it - it is also very natural for them to build afresh!

 

[Chris B]

Next season I'll be running an experiment managing 5 Langstroth hives Warre style(ish) i.e. using frames, standard sized box (medium), nadiring without a queen excluder and cutting out the 10 day inspection cycle. I'll measure the results against 5 true Warre colonies, managed by the book, and 5 conventional Langstroth, also managed by the book (but it's a different book!).
I'll make the results available. I have no idea where this might lead. I have no absolute loyalty to any particular strand of beekeeping. All that matters to me is keeping healthy, productive and profitable bees.

Any suggestions for how to conduct the trial and what to measure will be appreciated.

 

[Brosville]

That sounds excellent! -