Top and bottom bee space

[pargyle]

Space surrounding the entire comb is entirely a human invention for human convenience. In a wild nest there is attachment of the comb to the walls all the way and across the top. There are gaps typically every 100mm or so (quite variable) which are typically 10mm by 20mm (lots of variation). These gaps were termed by Seeley as "peripheral galleries" .
In the nest everything impacts heat transfer including the convecting air friction along the comb and the air resistance of the gaps communicating through combs. Thus having openings all around the comb increases heat loss. This extra loss is mostly as a result of the gap the on top of the bar. Perhaps we should still try to find solutions that improve on the 160 year old idea of Langstroth.

I think we already have Derek ... as you know top insulation and the closing of holes in crownboards is now almost universal in people who subscribe to this forum and the word is spreading beyond (albeit slowly and with some scepticism in some quarters). Insulated hives and the benefits to bees of boxes that don't lose heat as readily as older designs are recognised and your own research has confirmed this.

It is difficult to see how the framed system that has evolved almost universally can be bettered for beekeepers that need to inspect their bees for the variety of essential tasks required during the season. It is dreadfully inconvenient for the beekeeper when bees attach comb to the sides of a hive (as often happens in top bar only hives) and frankly it is destructive when it has to be broken if this sort of attachment is permitted.

However, in my own light touch inspection regime I find that the bees do build comb around the frames and sometimes bridge across the top of the frames ... where this does not impact on my inspection of the brood area I try not to disturb this unnecessarily. They also build comb on top of the top bars occasonally but this addiitonal comb is usually just in isolated lumps. I have never seen them completely filling the area above the top bars so I suspect that the space we allow them above, below and around the frames compensates for the throughways you find they leave in wild comb. Having seen a few abandoned hives you do find that, left to their own devices for a long period of time, the bees do tend to fill every available bit of space within the box, above, around and in between frames.

 

[AubMar]

Space surrounding the entire comb is entirely a human invention for human convenience. In a wild nest there is attachment of the comb to the walls all the way and across the top. There are gaps typically every 100mm or so (quite variable) which are typically 10mm by 20mm (lots of variation). These gaps were termed by Seeley as "peripheral galleries" .
In the nest everything impacts heat transfer including the convecting air friction along the comb and the air resistance of the gaps communicating through combs. Thus having openings all around the comb increases heat loss. This extra loss in a man made hive is mostly as a result of the gap the on top of the bar. Perhaps we should still try to find solutions that improve on the 160 year old idea of Langstroth.

Yes that is quite right but it is also very much in the interest in the bees welfare also as less are crushed or even bullied off the top of frames because you want to close them up, it also allows the keeper to observe or feed without any disturbance (assuming its a clear CB).
The heat is not actually lost, it is still within the box and the box will fill with heat from the top down, sure there may be slight convection currents of air but it will all be warm air and I'd imagine better than stagnant air.
Bees can direct and redirect heat and air when required as we watch them fanning at the entrance there are many more throughout the hive directing the airflow. I'm sure this will kick in as needed between the frames where bees will become restricters or blocks to slow down or redirect air from the top of the hive for heating or cooling.
These statements are made with poly hives in mind, I'm sure wooden hives will be different with higher heat losses through walls and roofs with little or no insulation. Very interesting topic.

 

[Antipodes]

Why does a manufacturer create a hive at significant cost to themselves, that does not respect top or bottom bee space and so renders its product at worst not fit for purpose and at best as a substandard product that once used by the beekeeper, is not going to be repurchased or given favourable peer reviews ???
More to the point why do beekeepers put up with such shoddy workmanship??

edit ~ I know some don't

All the boxes I have bought are the same, with both an obvious top and bottom space, so unless I make deeper frames, then it doesn't seem to matter who I buy from...
I guess I could , as an alternative to deeper frames, cut the bottom of the boxes off.

 

[fiat500bee]

All the boxes I have bought are the same, with both an obvious top and bottom space, so unless I make deeper frames, then it doesn't seem to matter who I buy from...
I guess I could , as an alternative to deeper frames, cut the bottom of the boxes off.

Do the boxes have separate, metal runners? If so you could raise or lower them to get the height right.

 

[Murox]

All the boxes I have bought are the same, with both an obvious top and bottom space, so unless I make deeper frames, then it doesn't seem to matter who I buy from...
I guess I could , as an alternative to deeper frames, cut the bottom of the boxes off.

Do the " obvious top and bottom space " equal an appropriate bee space when in use ??

 

[user 6228]

...
The heat is not actually lost, it is still within the box and the box will fill with heat from the top down, sure there may be slight convection currents of air but it will all be warm air and I'd imagine better than stagnant air.
...

If it were that simple I wouldnt be doing this Phd

Bees can direct and redirect heat and air when required as we watch them fanning at the entrance there are many more throughout the hive directing the airflow. I'm sure this will kick in as needed between the frames where bees will become restricters or blocks to slow down or redirect air from the top of the hive for heating or cooling.

yes the bees answer to every problem we cause them is "throw bees at it" but as always costs bees and honey

....Very interesting topic.

kept me amused for the last 9 years

 

[Antipodes]

Do the " obvious top and bottom space " equal an appropriate bee space when in use ??

No, it is more than a bee space. It's about 11.5mm, averaged out.

They fill it up with drone brood usually.

 

[Antipodes]

Do the boxes have separate, metal runners? If so you could raise or lower them to get the height right.

The old box has a metal runner but we don't use them now.... boxes used to have them as I understand it. I can't work out how this would help...wouldn't there still be too much space?

 

[Murox]

No, it is more than a bee space. It's about 11.5mm

They fill it up with drone brood usually.

How frustrating. Maybe contact the manufacturers and ask for a meeting to discuss the issue, take some boxes and frames with you and get them to solve the problem they are creating - never know you might get lucky.

 

[fiat500bee]

The old box has a metal runner but we don't use them now.... boxes used to have them as I understand it.

If I lifted the frames up on a runner to take away the top space, I'd still end up with an 11.5 mm average space between the frame top and bottoms between boxes, wouldn't I?

.....it would......but if you do have runners which can be raised sufficiently and you didn't mind going to bottom bee-space, you might be able to get the frames flush at the top and at least then you would only need to shave timber off the bottoms of the boxes. Doing that neatly would be a PITA though.

 

[Murox]

As langs are top bee space maybe you could take a router and re-mill where the frames sit by one or two mm - but how big would the top bee space become ?

 

[Michael ECB's]

Almost all of my boxes have been changed to 40mm bottom board space. Yes - 40mm... (Solid bottom board)
Here in the hotter climates it would seem to assist with the ventilation and creating some sort of "cyclonic air flow" .
Point being, if a push of smoke is blown in front of hive, it can clearly be seen and is increased with the raised bottom board.
Lid, I used to use telescopic lids which offered about 8mm but changed to - Yep, 40mm raised lid, open section on top is used for feeding or as an early warning of swarming if loads of comb is being built... This was told to me by another local bee keeper who has huge success in our "tougher" environment.
Another bonus here is if (Most of the time) If they are going to swarm, Queen cells are build below frames and are clearly visible...
Inspection is a quick lift/tilt of box and look under, no removing frames or disturbance... Look, close up and move on....
Also changed most of my 5 frame Nucs and trap boxes - Most having 40mm bottom space...

I am aware this 40mm bee gap breaks so many rules BUT it works here.... Especially the ventilation part....
All Langstroth hives with usual/std bee space between boxes/supers etc etc...

 

[user 6228]

Almost all of my boxes have been changed to 40mm bottom board space. Yes - 40mm... (Solid bottom board)
....
Another bonus here is if (Most of the time) If they are going to swarm, Queen cells are build below frames and are clearly visible...
Inspection is a quick lift/tilt of box and look under, no removing frames or disturbance... Look, close up and move on....
Also changed most of my 5 frame Nucs and trap boxes - Most having 40mm bottom space...

Done that here with more like 100mm+ with a "hopper" style floor. It was great for seeing when they were wanting more space above.

I am aware this 40mm bee gap breaks so many rules BUT it works here.... Especially the ventilation part....
All Langstroth hives with usual/std bee space between boxes/supers etc etc...

In a sunny climate its important to insulate the hive to stop excessive heat build up from insolation and of course make the bees own air conditioning more efficient. That also means counter intuitively just having a bottom entrance.

 

[Antipodes]

How frustrating. Maybe contact the manufacturers and ask for a meeting to discuss the issue, take some boxes and frames with you and get them to solve the problem they are creating - never know you might get lucky.

Hi Murox,
I should get my facts correct before I call them. Assuming these Langstroth boxes should be top bee space (no space at bottom) what should the space officially be at the top? Or anyone else , you're probably all about to get some kip.

 

[Antipodes]

Ok. I've just found this. Incredible. Apparently yes, you have to cut the boxes down in Australia. What!!!

see.."The bee space and its importance for hive measurements"

https://beekeepers.amazingbees.com.au/the-langstroth-hive.html

 

[pargyle]

Ok. I've just found this. Incredible. Apparently yes, you have to cut the boxes down in Australia. What!!!

see.."The bee space and its importance for hive measurements"

https://beekeepers.amazingbees.com.au/the-langstroth-hive.html

" We are not the first and only ones who have made this discovery; it has been well documented in "The Australasian Beekeeper, December 2010" under "In the Apiary - Do your bees have too much space?" and in "The New Zealand Beekeeper, April 2010".

However, the suppliers of hive boxes still supply box kits with fairly liberal measurements.

Correcting Hive Measurements

The height of hive boxes sold as "standard" in beekeeping supply stores in Australia measures between 243 and 248mm. Using frames and boxes as sold results in a gap of 10-18 mm instead of the 6-8mm bee space.

What to do?

Trim all boxes to the correct height of 239 mm before painting them. *


I've always found Australians a pretty liberal bunch ... throw another shrimp on the barbie cobber and grab yourself a tinnie .. it'll be alright !

 

[Antipodes]

It's pretty crazy isn't it. It's apparently the way it is all throughout NZ and Australia...I've spoken to manufacturers. And they supply overseas they say...so look out. The Langstroth box with the frames supplied all through the two countries have a top space and a bottom space....
I could add 3mm to the bottom of all the frames I've got, but I can tell you, I'm not going to. Nor am I going to trim off my boxes. If I could make my own boxes, I'd make them three mm shorter but with the same rebate at the top.

 

[Ian123]

Dear god as long as your hive parts have the corresponding top or bottom spaces it doesn’t matter a jot!!!!!

 

[Murox]

It's pretty crazy isn't it. It's apparently the way it is all throughout NZ and Australia...I've spoken to manufacturers. And they supply overseas they say...so look out. The Langstroth box with the frames supplied all through the two countries have a top space and a bottom space....
I could add 3mm to the bottom of all the frames I've got, but I can tell you, I'm not going to. Nor am I going to trim off my boxes. If I could make my own boxes, I'd make them three mm shorter but with the same rebate at the top.

Glad you have found the root cause, but what a weird thing for a manufacturer to do. I wonder how poly langs compare to that?

 

[user 6228]

Question -- why is the frame and comb to wall gap ~5mm but the top bar to crownboard gap ~10mm (as measured in a Thornes hive with Hoffman frames) (intercomb gap is 10mm)
Is there anything deeper than It works and it fits?