Top and bottom bee space

[AubMar]

I like the idea of being able to see the bees without having to remove the inner cover. You said "8mm BS", I presume you mean 8mm thick clear plastic? Please advise what "BS" is, is it perspex, or polycarbonate, or .... ?
Have you found a way to ensure that the bees do not bees to not soil the underside of the plastic sheet? From my limited experience, I imagine that the sheet may become less and less transparent as it becomes soiled, and that it may become more and more difficult to actually observe the bees well.

The 8mm BS is 8mm bee space and the polycarbonate is 4mm - I made the frame from 20mm square with a 4mm groove 10mm deep in the centre of one side, and the polycarbonate is cut 480mm square, so it all goes together like a jigsaw and ends up 500mm on all sides to match the outer of the poly broods and supers.
On the soiling I made a few extra and will change when inspecting if they are soiled too much. I think a soda crystal solution should be okay to clean them. I will know by this time next year! It is still a very worthwhile price to pay for the convenience. Everyone should try one or two for themselves.

 

[fiat500bee]

They have space between boxes yes. But top bee space and bottom bee space do not mean that.

I do know that. You are being very pedantic as I was responding to your assertion that a framed crownboard creates top bee-space. By your definitions you are contradicting yourself as well as me, because you are correctly defining that top or bottom "bee-space" is such by virtue of being within the box.

 

[pargyle]

I like the idea of being able to see the bees without having to remove the inner cover. You said "8mm BS", I presume you mean 8mm thick clear plastic? Please advise what "BS" is, is it perspex, or polycarbonate, or .... ?
Have you found a way to ensure that the bees do not soil the underside of the plastic sheet? From my limited experience, I imagine that the sheet may become less and less transparent as it becomes soiled, and that it may become more and more difficult to actually observe the bees well.
Please allow me to also ask about the number of frames in the hive box - I counted eleven. Is this supposed to be a twelve frame box? If you have extra space between the last frame and the side of the box, won't you have problems with the bees building wild comb in that space?

You just scrape any free comb off with your scraper when you inspect and if (like me) you have s few spare crownboards I change them over and s good wash with a hot washing soda solution gets them clean ... some of my 6mm polycarbonate ones are over 8 years old and you can still see through them... and some were skip find shower screens in the first place ... if bees feel the need to build comb or propolise then they will do it ... just have to live with it ... they like to do it so why should I try and stop them?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You are being very pedantic as I was responding to your assertion that a framed crownboard creates top bee-space.

Not pedantic at all - just correct, and a rimmed crownboard does create top beespace, if it is a single box on a floor, then you have top and bottom beespace. if you have a stack of boxes, the space between each one is neither - just beespace.

 

[madasafish]

I have TBS Langstroth from starting out. I used BBS at our Association apiary and TBS seemed far more logical.. and easy to use. (edit as did using Langs as Nationals are a pia to diy easily)

I use clear crownboards and clean them every year. Some bees go mad with propolis - so I requeen them. Stuck CBs and frames = pia and with BBS the propolis appears to get on your sleeves more readily. (sub conscious bias reaffirming decision making?)

 

[Erichalfbee]

I do know that. You are being very pedantic

Not really I was correcting you because this thread is about top and bottom beespace not about space between boxes.

 

[fiat500bee]

Not really I was correcting you because this thread is about top and bottom beespace not about space between boxes.

..

Not pedantic at all - just correct, and a rimmed crownboard does create top beespace, if it is a single box on a floor, then you have top and bottom beespace. if you have a stack of boxes, the space between each one is neither - just beespace.

I think you both need to give people a bit of headspace..

Top or bottom bee-space (back on topic I hope) is defined as such within the box...right? So whilst a framed crownboard gives space above a box, this is not (officially, by your approved definitions) top bee-space. If you insist that it is then so is the space between boxes....and it's not..right?

...end of interest in the subject.

 

[Murox]

The Cushman web pages say
" Relative to the frame positions vertically
The frames in a beehive are shorter than the box they fit in by a "bee space". If the frames are level with the top of the box and the bee space is under the frames this is termed "Bottom Bee Space" (BBS). If the frames are level with the bottom of the box and the bee space is at the top it is termed "Top Bee Space" (TBS). "

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don’t want to start another bun fight, but why do some beekeepers choose top bee space and others bottom bee space. Is the spacing dependant on hive type or is it personal preference?

Sorry Elaine
You can tell we’ve got no bees to play with.

 

[E&MBees]

Sorry Elaine
You can tell we’ve got no bees to play with.

It’s going to be a long winter!! I very carefully avoided putting top space VS bottom space in the title. It’s an interesting subject. So many beginners buy hives without really understanding that the hive type determines the type of space. I didn’t.
Emily

 

[understanding_bees]

You just scrape any free comb off with your scraper when you inspect and if (like me) you have s few spare crownboards I change them over and s good wash with a hot washing soda solution gets them clean ... some of my 6mm polycarbonate ones are over 8 years old and you can still see through them... and some were skip find shower screens in the first place ... if bees feel the need to build comb or propolise then they will do it ... just have to live with it ... they like to do it so why should I try and stop them?

Thank you Philip, for your response to my question. I noticed, in comment #11 in this thread, that you said, "I like it because with clear crownboards with a rim I can see the bees walking around on top of the frames when I peer in and that gives me pleasure..... "

Can you please clarify something for me? The concept of TBS - Top Bee Space - seems to be very popular. It seems to me, that if a hive body is constructed to provide 8mm TBS, then the top of a frame will be 8mm below the level of the top of the hive box. In other words, any plain sheet of material, whether it be plywood, perspex or polycarbonate, when placed directly onto the box will have 8mm clearance between it and the top of the frames. If this is the case, then why would it be necessary to enclose a plastic sheet in a wooden frame to create an additional 8mm clearance?

Various comments in this discussion thread indicate that we need to understand the definitions for (1) BS - Bee Space (2) TBS - Top Bee Space, and (3) BBS - Bottom Bee Space. I think that the definition of a TBS hive box should be that bee space will still exist if a flat board is placed on top of the hive box, and that BBS should mean that bee space will still exist if the hive box is placed directly onto a flat surface such as a concrete pathway.

And now I come back to my question which relates to your comment (#11) "with clear crownboards with a rim I can see the bees walking around on top of the frames". I think that you are saying that a crown board with a rim provides bee space above the frames, even if it is placed onto a hive box which does not provide TBS.

I have written the above detailed comment because I think that it is essential to be precise when guidance is sought by people who are seeking knowledge. If we are imprecise in our guidance, there is always the strong probability that the advice might be understood ambiguously.

It seems to me that the concept of TBS hive boxes provides real benefits:
(1) crown boards do not require rims to be able to give bees the space they need for freedom of movement. This would mean that a plain perspex or polycarbonate sheet would make a good crown board.
(2) beekeepers may have greater confidence of avoiding injury to bees when replacing hive boxes onto a hive.

In addition to the above points, it seems to me that if a hive box has TBS, then it may have very little BBS. If this is the case it becomes important to take care where a box is placed when it is removed from a hive during an inspection. I have the impression that it may always be wise to stand a hive box containing frames and bees onto its end, while it is removed from the hive.

 

[GuyNir]

I'm using Paynes poly nationals that come with a flimsey 1mm top cover - bee killers because no top bee space (for me anyway)
I was never happy with them, no matter how you try and clear the bees with smoke or a brush and even gently sliding the sheet into place there were bees trapped, so to fix it I made clear crown boards with 8mm BS and put a 30mm feed hole in the centre fitted with a removable clear plug. The result is no bees crushed, in fact it completely changes beekeeping for me, inspections, feeding and a quick look on a warm winters day without opening are now possible, and I don't have to hoosh all the bees off the tops of the frames and agitating them.
One question is what harm will adding top space to to a colony that doesn't have some, I don't know any, and then what good will it do, well it allows the bees to move around inside the hive more freely where its warm rather than have to go to the bottom of the frame where its cooler. It also allows the keeper to manage the hive with more easy and less invasion. This is just my thinking and limited experience.
I'm working on a similar one for nucs now as attached!
Definitely worth considering for the small amount of money involved.
View attachment 22508View attachment 22509

I also use Paynes poly equipment. I’ve converted their poly crown boards this year using 6mm polycarbonate. Did the same with my Maisemore nucs.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Obviously not Philip but I use the same system

Can you please clarify something for me? The concept of TBS - Top Bee Space - seems to be very popular. It seems to me, that if a hive body is constructed to provide 8mm TBS, then the top of a frame will be 8mm below the level of the top of the hive box. In other words, any plain sheet of material, whether it be plywood, perspex or polycarbonate, when placed directly onto the box will have 8mm clearance between it and the top of the frames. If this is the case, then why would it be necessary to enclose a plastic sheet in a wooden frame to create an additional 8mm clearance?

I like to do this because there are times I have the crown board between boxes, typically when getting bees to take uncapped stores down into the brood after harvest.


Various comments in this discussion thread indicate that we need to understand the definitions for (1) BS - Bee Space (2) TBS - Top Bee Space, and (3) BBS - Bottom Bee Space. I think that the definition of a TBS hive box should be that bee space will still exist if a flat board is placed on top of the hive box, and that BBS should mean that bee space will still exist if the hive box is placed directly onto a flat surface such as a concrete pathway.

Cushman's description is perfectly adequate
" Relative to the frame positions vertically
The frames in a beehive are shorter than the box they fit in by a "bee space". If the frames are level with the top of the box and the bee space is under the frames this is termed "Bottom Bee Space" (BBS). If the frames are level with the bottom of the box and the bee space is at the top it is termed "Top Bee Space" (TBS). "



And now I come back to my question which relates to your comment (#11) "with clear crownboards with a rim I can see the bees walking around on top of the frames". I think that you are saying that a crown board with a rim provides bee space above the frames, even if it is placed onto a hive box which does not provide TBS.

Yes

It seems to me that the concept of TBS hive boxes provides real benefits:
(1) crown boards do not require rims to be able to give bees the space they need for freedom of movement. This would mean that a plain perspex or polycarbonate sheet would make a good crown board.

Unless you need to put it between two boxes


(2) beekeepers may have greater confidence of avoiding injury to bees when replacing hive boxes onto a hive.

In addition to the above points, it seems to me that if a hive box has TBS, then it may have very little BBS. If this is the case it becomes important to take care where a box is placed when it is removed from a hive during an inspection. I have the impression that it may always be wise to stand a hive box containing frames and bees onto its end, while it is removed from the hive.

We put our boxes at an angle on top of the roof. Does the same job while keeping the orientation of the frames

 

[Antipodes]

Obviously not Philip but I use the same system

Can you please clarify something for me? The concept of TBS - Top Bee Space - seems to be very popular. It seems to me, that if a hive body is constructed to provide 8mm TBS, then the top of a frame will be 8mm below the level of the top of the hive box. In other words, any plain sheet of material, whether it be plywood, perspex or polycarbonate, when placed directly onto the box will have 8mm clearance between it and the top of the frames. If this is the case, then why would it be necessary to enclose a plastic sheet in a wooden frame to create an additional 8mm clearance?

I like to do this because there are times I have the crown board between boxes, typically when getting bees to take uncapped stores down into the brood after harvest.


Various comments in this discussion thread indicate that we need to understand the definitions for (1) BS - Bee Space (2) TBS - Top Bee Space, and (3) BBS - Bottom Bee Space. I think that the definition of a TBS hive box should be that bee space will still exist if a flat board is placed on top of the hive box, and that BBS should mean that bee space will still exist if the hive box is placed directly onto a flat surface such as a concrete pathway.

Cushman's description is perfectly adequate
" Relative to the frame positions vertically
The frames in a beehive are shorter than the box they fit in by a "bee space". If the frames are level with the top of the box and the bee space is under the frames this is termed "Bottom Bee Space" (BBS). If the frames are level with the bottom of the box and the bee space is at the top it is termed "Top Bee Space" (TBS). "



And now I come back to my question which relates to your comment (#11) "with clear crownboards with a rim I can see the bees walking around on top of the frames". I think that you are saying that a crown board with a rim provides bee space above the frames, even if it is placed onto a hive box which does not provide TBS.

Yes

It seems to me that the concept of TBS hive boxes provides real benefits:
(1) crown boards do not require rims to be able to give bees the space they need for freedom of movement. This would mean that a plain perspex or polycarbonate sheet would make a good crown board.

Unless you need to put it between two boxes


(2) beekeepers may have greater confidence of avoiding injury to bees when replacing hive boxes onto a hive.

In addition to the above points, it seems to me that if a hive box has TBS, then it may have very little BBS. If this is the case it becomes important to take care where a box is placed when it is removed from a hive during an inspection. I have the impression that it may always be wise to stand a hive box containing frames and bees onto its end, while it is removed from the hive.

We put our boxes at an angle on top of the roof. Does the same job while keeping the orientation of the frames

I'm trying to fit Cushman's definition into what I see and have measured here with my Langstroth boxes. Please see attached photos showing the top of a frame in a box, and the bottom of the same frame. I measured with my calipers and got 5.68mm top space and 4.51mm bottom space....

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm trying to fit Cushman's definition into what I see and have measured here with my Langstroth boxes. Please see attached photos showing the top of a frame in a box, and the bottom of the same frame. I measured with my calipers and got 5.68mm top space and 4.51mm bottom space....

The first poly hives I ever bought were Paradise? Nationals from Modern Beekeeping in 2008. I bought them because they were advertised as Top Space. They weren’t really. They were the same as yours with space shared top and bottom.

 

[Murox]

The accuracy of the finished product -both frames and boxes - is only as good as the care the maker puts into their manufacture. Propolised hives are not always to do with bees that make a lot of propolis.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The first poly hives I ever bought were Paradise? Nationals from Modern Beekeeping in 2008. I bought them because they were advertised as Top Space. They weren’t really. They were the same as yours with space shared top and bottom.

.....which is a real ******* configuration, found a brood box like that at the association apiary once - I reconfigured it .............
with a sledgehammer

 

[Murox]

.....which is a real ******* configuration, found a brood box like that at the association apiary once - I reconfigured it .............
with a sledgehammer

KISS

 

[Antipodes]

The first poly hives I ever bought were Paradise? Nationals from Modern Beekeeping in 2008. I bought them because they were advertised as Top Space. They weren’t really. They were the same as yours with space shared top and bottom.

.....which is a real ******* configuration, found a brood box like that at the association apiary once - I reconfigured it .............
with a sledgehammer

I've checked a few other langstroth boxes I have.....making sure that they were by four different companies making them and two different makers of the frames. They are all the same, give or take a mill or two. Are langstroth boxes different regarding bee space? They are the most commonly used box in the world aren't they?

 

[GuyNir]

Now I’m sure this thread will take us into winter...