Top and bottom bee space

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They are all the same, give or take a mill or two.

So not all the same then. a millimetre or two is all it takes to make the difference - two mm on your original 5.68 top space gives you the correct TBS and only 2mm clearance at the bottom is virtually nil

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've checked a few other langstroth boxes I have.....making sure that they were by four different companies making them and two different makers of the frames. They are all the same, give or take a mill or two. Are langstroth boxes different regarding bee space? They are the most commonly used box in the world aren't they?

Do you know, I have no idea. Perhaps somebody with British Langs will chip in. Its an interesting observation

 

[Erichalfbee]

.....which is a real ******* configuration, found a brood box like that at the association apiary once - I reconfigured it .............
with a sledgehammer

I agree. They lasted a 2 seasons before I found somebody else who made poly hives. They were a scarce option then.

 

[Antipodes]

So not all the same then. a millimetre or two is all it takes to make the difference - two mm on your original 5.68 top space gives you the correct TBS and only 2mm clearance at the bottom is virtually nil

Yeah, but the thing is that it is obvious when you look at the boxes and frames that there is a space at the top and a space at the bottom.

Box one 5.68 top and 4.51 bottom

Box two 4.85 top and 9.5 bottom.

Box three 4.77 top and 5.80 bottom

Box four 6.71 top and 4.97 bottom.

 

[madasafish]

In addition to the above points, it seems to me that if a hive box has TBS, then it may have very little BBS. If this is the case it becomes important to take care where a box is placed when it is removed from a hive during an inspection. I have the impression that it may always be wise to stand a hive box containing frames and bees onto its end, while it is removed from the hive.

I - using TBS - have never had that problem as the frames I use are compatible with my hives..(silly? not really)

I believe # SOME poly hive suppliers sell frames which fit perfectly within the TBS but come right down to the bottom of the hive So any brace comb will catch on a flat surface (not another TBS box)..

# not experienced myself but know another beekeeper who had that issue buying frames from a poly hive supplier.(Langstroth only).

 

[madasafish]

Do you know, I have no idea. Perhaps somebody with British Langs will chip in. Its an interesting observation

My langs are home built jumbo brood/shallow super based on US plans. I have had no problems using frames from Thornes or Maisies.. both jumbo brood or shallow super

I have one Modern Beekeeping Paradise poly Lang jumbo and shallow supers. Same comments as above.

I only buy seconds frames so have no experience of other frame suppliers..

But I checked dimensions of all this when starting... (Hobby mechanic and physics training make me OCD on measurements)

 

[pargyle]

Thank you Philip, for your response to my question. I noticed, in comment #11 in this thread, that you said, "I like it because with clear crownboards with a rim I can see the bees walking around on top of the frames when I peer in and that gives me pleasure..... "

Can you please clarify something for me? The concept of TBS - Top Bee Space - seems to be very popular. It seems to me, that if a hive body is constructed to provide 8mm TBS, then the top of a frame will be 8mm below the level of the top of the hive box. In other words, any plain sheet of material, whether it be plywood, perspex or polycarbonate, when placed directly onto the box will have 8mm clearance between it and the top of the frames. If this is the case, then why would it be necessary to enclose a plastic sheet in a wooden frame to create an additional 8mm clearance?

The hive you buy will be configured by way of where the frames are hung (frames being standard to some extent) to be either top bee space or bottom bee space. You are quite right - bottom bee space hives (Like the Paynes Poly 14 x 12's that I use) will have the top bars of the frames level with the top of the hive so the crownboard sits flush on the top of the bars. In the case of my Paynes polys the crownboard they provide as purchased is a thin polycarbonate sheet.

Because I prefer top bee space I discard the standard crown board and I make new 6mm polycarbonate ones with a rim to provide top bee space ... so, effectively, my hives are now top and bottom bee space.

Top bee space hives like Langstroths have top bee space as standard so the bottom of the frames will be flush with the bottom of the hive but the top of the top bars will be 8mm below the top of the hive so a plaincrownboard with no rim will sit fliush on the top of the hive and the bees will have top bee space without the need for a rim on the crownboard.

Edit ,.... Ahhh ,.,, see Dani got to it before I did .. with a fuller explanation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My langs are home built jumbo brood/shallow super based on US plans. I have had no problems using frames from Thornes or Maisies.. both jumbo brood or shallow super

But are they top beespace, bottom beespace or just a bodged inbetween?

 

[madasafish]

But are they top beespace, bottom beespace or just a bodged inbetween?

Top beespace

 

[Antipodes]

Anyhow, I tend to put boxes down on their end much of the time when inspecting the hive. Sometimes a box on the upturned lid. I think I only have one flat site so it can all get a bit awkward. Probably should put them all on the lid.

 

[Antipodes]

..oh, and by the way, the Langstroth boxes are...
Box one, New Zealand made.
Box two Australian made
Box three, about 40 years old, probably Australian
Box four, Chinese made.

 

[understanding_bees]

Thankyou Dani (comment #33) and Philip (comment #47) for your responses.

 

[fiat500bee]

Yeah, but the thing is that it is obvious when you look at the boxes and frames that there is a space at the top and a space at the bottom.

I think that Langstroths are constructed quite differently from our BS Nationals, but with wooden Nationals it's very easy to get the beespace correct if you assemble your own. When I did this, instead of fitting the sides which carry the runners by measuring to a specific dimension, with the metal rails secured, I loosely fitted the sides and placed an assembled frame, hanging in position at each end of the box. I adjusted the side panels so that the tops of the frames were perfectly flush with the top of the box and then pinned the sides in place. This was for bottom bee-space.

If you wanted top bee-space you could do the same but by assembling on a flat surface and ensuring the bottoms of the frames were flush with that,

Even this process fails if you later acquire frames which aren't an exact dimensional replica of your originals and it depends on the boxes having been made accurately in the first place. But at least you end up with bee-space only at the top or only at the bottom. If you are able to dismantle an old box which was assembled inaccurately, then you could apply this process to it. You can also convert from one "bee-space" to another using this approach.

 

[fiat500bee]

Have you found a way to ensure that the bees do not soil the underside of the plastic sheet?

I can't speak for the longer-term, but after three weeks with a clear, twin-walled, polycarbonate crownboard with rim, there is no propolis at all on one of my hives. In trying to explain this I wonder if it might be because the top of my hive has about 120mm of insulation and there are no gaps at all to the outside because of an insulated sleeve. Perhaps it's a lack of the raw materials just now; whatever the reason, it's easy to see that at least some of the bees are OK.

 

[Antipodes]

I think that Langstroths are constructed quite differently from our BS Nationals, but with wooden Nationals it's very easy to get the beespace correct if you assemble your own. When I did this, instead of fitting the sides which carry the runners by measuring to a specific dimension, with the metal rails secured, I loosely fitted the sides and placed an assembled frame, hanging in position at each end of the box. I adjusted the side panels so that the tops of the frames were perfectly flush with the top of the box and then pinned the sides in place. This was for bottom bee-space.

If you wanted top bee-space you could do the same but by assembling on a flat surface and ensuring the bottoms of the frames were flush with that,

Even this process fails if you later acquire frames which aren't an exact dimensional replica of your originals and it depends on the boxes having been made accurately in the first place. But at least you end up with bee-space only at the top or only at the bottom. If you are able to dismantle an old box which was assembled inaccurately, then you could apply this process to it. You can also convert from one "bee-space" to another using this approach.

I'll contact the Kiwis tomorrow and ask them what's going on....
Talking of Kiwis, hoping for a good game of rugby today between the All Blacks and the Wallabies in Wellington. We now have a NZ coach!

 

[rolande]

I'll contact the Kiwis tomorrow and ask them what's going on..

Probably not a lot, a few years ago one of the American magazines did a survey of their own hive manufacturers and (as you have) found just about every configuration of bee space imaginable.

 

[Madge]

.....which is a real ******* configuration, found a brood box like that at the association apiary once - I reconfigured it .............
with a sledgehammer

That’s a bit rough! Paradise Bee Boxes still have a use. I use mine as bait hives.

 

[SteveG]

I also use Paynes poly equipment. I’ve converted their poly crown boards this year using 6mm polycarbonate. Did the same with my Maisemore nucs.

Used similar on Paradise Hive. 30:00 for 5 with holes cut. Good value I think

 

[user 6228]

Space surrounding the entire comb is entirely a human invention for human convenience. In a wild nest there is attachment of the comb to the walls all the way and across the top. There are gaps typically every 100mm or so (quite variable) which are typically 10mm by 20mm (lots of variation). These gaps were termed by Seeley as "peripheral galleries" .
In the nest everything impacts heat transfer including the convecting air friction along the comb and the air resistance of the gaps communicating through combs. Thus having openings all around the comb increases heat loss. This extra loss in a man made hive is mostly as a result of the gap the on top of the bar. Perhaps we should still try to find solutions that improve on the 160 year old idea of Langstroth.

 

[Murox]

Why does a manufacturer create a hive at significant cost to themselves, that does not respect top or bottom bee space and so renders its product at worst not fit for purpose and at best as a substandard product that once used by the beekeeper, is not going to be repurchased or given favourable peer reviews ???
More to the point why do beekeepers put up with such shoddy workmanship??

edit ~ I know some don't