Too late to Merge?

[Paulo20]

Hi, just found out that one of my colonies is queenless. Is it too late to merge ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

No as long as you’re sure. How sure are you?

 

[ericbeaumont]

one of my colonies is queenless

Many queens go off lay in late summer, but start again when the ivy flowers or beekeeper feeds.

On occasion I've concluded wrongly when the visual evidence - glazed pollen, no brood, backfilling brood areas - indicated lack of a queen.

Do what I should have done: add a frame of eggs* and check at the end of the week. Nothing in beekeeping is conclusive, but they ought to raise EQCs.

*Convinced myself that I had no time and that my verdict was correct: goodbye new queen.

 

[Erichalfbee]

A frame with young larvae. Not just eggs

 

[Newbeeneil]

I found a colony today without any brood except scattered drone brood. Looks like it's laying workers so I will have to turf them out on a warm day

 

[Boston Bees]

Hi, just found out that one of my colonies is queenless. Is it too late to merge ?

I wouldn't.

What if it goes wrong and the queen in the receiving hive gets killed during the merger? Highly experienced beekeepers on here will tell you that uniting is easy and that you won't have any problems if you do it their way. But that doesn't mean you won't have any problems in reality.

As mentioned above, they probably aren't queenless. But even if they are, I wouldn't try to save them at this stage. Split one of your other hives in spring and you are back to full strength!

PS: Give them a test frame if you want (I wouldn't personally), but I'd make it one with not much brood in - you are robbing the donor hive of a significant number of crucial winter bees otherwise.

 

[PeaBee]

I agree with what BB. You could unite. But what if there is a queen in there that has paused laying for what ever reason and what should the hive you unite with gain at this stage. A bit bigger winter cluster, maybe, but not sure that there would be a benefit into the spring. The "queenless" one might surprise you and even if not like BB says you will need to do a split at some point any way in the spring.
I find uniting is normally straightforward enough anduseful for certain times, such as boosting colonies for a particular flow etc. Never really seen the need for "sticking plaster " uniting.

 

[Patrick1]

No need to risk a “test frame” just a patch to the size of a match box will do, they just need a few eggs or verry young lava to draw a queen cell from. Put in the suspect hive in the middle of the hive at the top of a frame.

 

[Paulo20]

Thanks, it was a very late prime swarm (not one of mine) 21/9/21 put on fresh comb, never seen queen or ELS. I will leave well alone and check them again in two weeks when the treatment is finished. If nothing else I will have 11 drawn frames full of stores.

 

[Niv]

Thanks, it was a very late prime swarm (not one of mine) 21/9/21 put on fresh comb, never seen queen or ELS. I will leave well alone and check them again in two weeks when the treatment is finished. If nothing else I will have 11 drawn frames full of stores.

Hang on, you have treatment on too? That can put the queen off lay too. So if i were you I would be 100% certain before making any drastic decisions. It is hard to 'do nothing' but sometimes that is the right thing to do for a period.

 

[Poly Hive]

Just to highlight how little is needed for a test "frame" I have used a graft and got a positive result. One larvae offered.

When I took 60+ to the heather they were all "queenless" on returning but by crikey start pouring in the syrup and suddenly they were Q+! No brood means bugger all. YOU need to KNOW. Most queens purchased are lost on introduction for the simple reason the beekeeper does NOT KNOW that they are Q-, and in reality there is a virgin in there. Top tip for next season.

PH

 

[Paulo20]

thanks, it just about how late you can still merge if your definite theirs no queen ?
What happens in two weeks time if I’m still queenles, merge or is it too late. with the temperature dropping so quick it’s a worry about opening up as you never know what’s coming in this country.
On the subject of buying queens, my local BBKA, Dean Forest Beekeepers run their own breeding program to help members with local queens and also those whom want to reduce the amount of queens brought in from abroad. Temperament, laying pattern etc all factored in.

 

[Poly Hive]

You are unaware of this it seems:

True, it is best to leave bees alone once the colonies are well fed and safe from the wet and the driving snow. Yet in the l950s. a Dr. Jeffree did try to discover what is going on in the winter cluster, and he examined about 360 colonies over a period of I0 years while he was at Aberdeen. Scotland. He tells us that it is all right to look into hives, provided the air temperatures rise high enough to permit cleansing flights and allow bees to return home safely afterwards (Jeffree. E.P.1956). He discovered patches of brood at any time of the winter period. Although the size and their occurrence appeared to increase towards spring. Furthermore, he could not relate their occurrence to climatic conditions affecting the whole of the apiary. Most hives were inspected once
only in each winter, but among the seven colonies which he examined repeatedly weather permitting – he found in two of them evidence of stops and starts of brood rearing.
All right. the winters in the north of Scotland can never match those of the northern states and of the Canadian provinces. but wintering in a cluster relies on inherited patterns of social (and individual) behaviour which guarantees survival, and the basic principles reside in the genes of all bees of the European races of Apis mellifera L. Variations in temperatures are only a matter of degrees, not of principles. And, although the two winters were exceptional. sometimes the winters can also be bitter and prolonged in Scotland.
Dr. Jeffree’s work, as well as that of many other scientists, was of great interest to me after l had discovered brood rearing in my hives in Lincolnshire one winter. Pondering over the reasons behind such an activity which. of course, could cost the lives of colonies through starvation or nosema disease. the search for an answer became a veritable compulsion. l took part in wintering surveys of food consumption and was surprised at the variation in food consumption between colonies. After that, I started to examine my own colonies whenever l could. When I was appointed to the Advisory Post at the College of Agriculture of the North of Scotland at Aberdeen, my investigations into the problem of brood rearing in the hive-locked winter cluster were intensified. During the first two winters, nearly all colonies in the Craibstone apiary (and my own) were subjected to regular inspections (weather permitting), and some of the colonies took part in other experiments which included the caging of queens (with access by workers). as well as the formation of ‘super colonies’ by uniting strong colonies to form one unit.

B. Mobus

PH

 

[Paulo20]

thanks,

 

[Paulo20]

thanks, but what would be lowest winter temperature that a quick inspection could be done ?

 

[Wilco]

thanks, it just about how late you can still merge if your definite theirs no queen ?
What happens in two weeks time if I’m still queenles, merge or is it too late. with the temperature dropping so quick it’s a worry about opening up as you never know what’s coming in this country.
On the subject of buying queens, my local BBKA, Dean Forest Beekeepers run their own breeding program to help members with local queens and also those whom want to reduce the amount of queens brought in from abroad. Temperament, laying pattern etc all factored in.

Expect the worst hope for the best. Your profile says you have five hives. At this time of year I suspect you will struggle to be able to buy or rear a replacement queen. As such, I would look at a truly Q- colony at this time of year as already lost. The genetic line ends if there are no eggs/larvae and the workers will die out in time anyway. These are the two possible situations plus options and outcomes at this point:

1. You are mistaken and still have 5 Q+ colonies even if one looks Q-. You can EITHER
a. Do nothing other than usual feeding etc. and the fifth starts laying, you still have 5 Q+ colonies assuming no winter losses. OR
b. Try to merge meaning one or both of the queens involved end up being killed with no way to get a replacement at this time of year. You end up with either 3 or 4 Q+ hives in total depending on success of unite, assuming no winter losses.

2. You are correct and have 4 Q+ colonies and one Q- colony. You can EITHER
a. Do nothing other than usual feeding etc.. You still have 4 Q+ colonies assuming no winter losses and the fifth dwindles to nothing as expected. OR
b. Try to merge meaning there is a chance the queen in the Q+ hive used is killed if the process is unsuccessful, with no way to get a replacement at this time of year. You end up with either 3 or 4 Q+ hives in total depending on success of unite, assuming no winter losses.

In either scenario at this time of year, I think your best outcome is achieved by not attempting to unite and to instead recoup losses in spring through swarm control measures.

 

[Wilco]

thanks, but what would be lowest winter temperature that a quick inspection could be done ?

How quick... if you have a calm sunny winter day and the bees are on cleansing flights I'd consider risking it if desperate but I'd avoid at all costs.

A lot of the time inspecting in winter is more for the sake of the beekeeper than the bees; we will find out in spring whether they have survived and checking sooner may reduce their survival. A quick crack of the crown board (or better still, clear crown boards) is often acceptable but an inspection in winter is a bad idea. Only inspect if the outcome of the inspection is likely to change what you do.

 

[Polymorph]

I just went down the route of uniting last weekend - and noticed Roger P also did his live at the hive on Sunday on same topic. My issue was an imperfect supersedure where the new queen was only producing drone brood. Easy to find good queen in nuc and put her in a cage, but could I find the drone layer in the main hive, no I couldn't (even though saw some eggs and not multiple in cells). Anyway they have been combined with newspaper and with a caged good queen. Will check how things look later in week with warmer weather. Live and learn.

 

[Poly Hive]

OP? As you seem not to know for sure my advice, and it's what I am doing, is this. Leave them alone.

If they are good then fine. If not then tough. It's only possible to defy nature to a point. Always keep in mind if you keep livestock then expect dead stock. Some genes are better lost.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

One or two fingers up to those that say uniting is to be completely off the possible agenda.

If done properly in the appropriate circumstances, there is nowt wrong with uniting - even where both colonies are known to be queenright. It is just amatter of ensuring all the conditions are correct before uniting in a sensible fashion.