Tom Seeley - Darwinian Beekeeping

[Beefriendly]

Climatic region do not equal continent. Apis mellifera mellifera had few hundred years of roaming free in North America and flourished

So he must be saying that it is okay to import bees from similar climatic regions, like say from most of mainland Europe to UK. But not from Louisiana to Massachusetts?

 

[user 6228]

So he must be saying that it is okay to import bees from similar climatic regions, like say from most of mainland Europe to UK. But not from Louisiana to Massachusetts?

Germany & Northern France (both originally Amm) & Northern Spain (A.m.i strain closest to Amm) but not italy.

 

[Finman]

Germany & Northern France (both originally Amm) & Northern Spain (A.m.i strain closest to Amm) but not italy.

Our favorite Queen import country is Italy. Its climate is not near us.

Then nature selects next winter which continue. They are not bad. Often a beekeeper has worse inbred mongrels.
.

 

[Erichalfbee]

How big a box and how many stores do your bees need for winter, finman?

 

[Finman]

How big a box and how many stores do your bees need for winter, finman?

I need 1-2 langstroth boxes for Winter. I extract all honey from brood boxes. Then I feed on average 20 kg sugar/hive. I do not need extra feeding in spring. Just even stores between hives.

The key to wintering is locally adapted bees.

To over winter hives with honey is really expencive. Cost with sugar is only 10€. IT is equal 2 kg honey.
.What bees need to wintering is pollen.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

..........
To over winter hives with honey is really expensive. Cost with sugar is only 10€. IT is equal 2 kg honey.
What bees need to winter is pollen.

Can you explain your thinking Finnie? I would have thought they need the carbohydrate of the sugar stores to provide the energy to maintain the hive temperature. The pollen will be needed in the late-winter/spring for the build-up of the population of workers but not surely for the over-wintering in general.

CVB

 

[Fusion_power]

Bees are just as happy with syrup for winter as they are with honey. In some cases, they are better off. This would be true of some honeydew which is highly indigestible. Beekeepers long ago figured out that they could remove all the honey, then feed the bees heavily to replace their winter stores. There is only one problem. The syrup fed is normally sucrose which the bees invert into simple sugars fructose and glucose, then they evaporate the excess water bringing it down to 17% moisture like honey. This amounts to a great deal of work for a colony of bees. If they are fed too late, it can in effect convert long lived winter bees into shorter lived summer bees. This can cause a colony to die out in February or March. This is the reason late fall feeding is advised to be done on a limited basis with the bulk of feeding done in the spring when bees are raising brood. If feeding can be done prior to the winter bee brood cycle, it can be successful.

 

[Finman]

1) There is only one problem. The syrup fed is normally sucrose which the bees invert into simple sugars fructose and glucose,

2) If they are fed too late, it can in effect convert long lived winter bees into shorter lived summer bees. This can cause a colony to die out in February or March.

3) If feeding can be done prior to the winter bee brood cycle, it can be successful.

If they were true, I would not have any bees.

1) before sucrose goes into bees blood circulation, the molecule is splitted to glucose and fructose. Same happens in your belly.

2) water content of food turns winter bee to summer bee. That will never happen.

3) I mostly feed the colonies when the most winterbees have emerged

Pollen in wintering hive:

Xx) last bees emerge during feeding. Feeding starts brood rearing again, and they make perhaps 2 brood frames. When those bees emerge, they needs lots of pollen to finish their growing to wintering bees. They need pollen to that.

Same way, when colony has one box of brood, when I start to feed them, I put extra empty box over the brood, that they can store the winter food into empty box. That colony needs quite much pollen.

If bees do not have pollen, they eate the larvae off to their protein needs.

In my climate I have 8 wintering months when bees do not get pollen from nature. When I start pollen patty feeding in April, I can see how big need of protein bees have. It is huge, without that they even have eggs in the hive.

But perhaps bees need different theories to get over the winter. They are flexible animals and they stand many kind of beekeeping.

Same bees but different wintering theories

.

 

[eddyh]

You can't have it both ways ... that it's ok to import stuff you approve of, but not ok for the rest ...

Once you've opened the lid off Pandora's Box ... it's then wide open.
LJ

Yes you can,its called borders.Look Australia.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

......

3) I mostly feed the colonies when the most winterbees have emerged

Pollen in wintering hive:

...

.

Ok that makes sense - the bees need the protein in pollen for the winter bees to develop in the Autumn and they need more in the spring for the spring/summer bees to develop.

Between these two pollen consuming events, they eat the carbohydrate of the sugars to maintain hive temperature.

Thanks Finnie

CVB

 

[Finman]

.
There are theories, when the brood rearing begins after winter.
In my country answer is simple: When willow start to give pollen.
And that date is very sure, it is first of May.

The angle of sun keeps the date permanent.

 

[Erichalfbee]

.
There are theories, when the brood rearing begins after winter.
In my country answer is simple: When willow start to give pollen.
And that date is very sure, it is first of May.

The angle of sun keeps the date permanent.

Although it's earlier than May 1st the willows bloom roughly the same time of year every year here too. What isn't regular is the weather. Last year it rained most of April and the bees had no benefit. The year before was a little better but in 2014 the boxes were groaning with willow pollen

 

[pargyle]

The forum is open to beekeepers from any country to write about their experiences, not just to those in the UK.

Yes - and one of them is accepted regardless of what tripe he spouts ... the issue is the relevance that beekeeping in a Norther European largely frozen wilderness has to the sort of beekeeping we have in the UK. Posts relating to beekeeping in extreme climates elsewhere should carry a UK beekeeping health warning

 

[Beefriendly]

The syrup fed is normally sucrose which the bees invert into simple sugars fructose and glucose, then they evaporate the excess water bringing it down to 17% moisture like honey. .

Feed them invert syrup at around 80% if you are worried, I think it's called ambrosia.
All they need to do with that is store it.
Of course it costs a little more than sugar..

 

[Beefriendly]

the issue is the relevance that beekeeping in a Norther European largely frozen wilderness has to the sort of beekeeping we have in the UK.

I find information about keeping bees in different countries fascinating, long may it continue. This is an international forum after all.

 

[pargyle]

swarming, highly defensive etc.

The European bee has been breed over 1000s of years to be docile, low swarming etc.

.

I don't think that's quite right ... modern beekeeping really didn't start until a couple of hundred years ago .. prior to that it was attract swarms, kill them at the end of the season and take the honey. No influence on the feral bees they attrracted as far as I can see ... and certainly no selection for traits.

The fact that we are breeding successfully for selective traits (Brother Adam) in a relatively short time frame should be an indicator that bees are able to adapt and evolve - so there is no reason to believe that we can, in my lifetime, see a development of bees that are naturally robust in the face of varroa.

 

[pargyle]

I find information about keeping bees in different countries fascinating, long may it continue. This is an international forum after all.

Well - perhaps you are capable of being selective about what you take from those posts. I too am interested in beekeeping in foreign climes but the danger is that someone in a Scandihooligan country suggests that it's a good idea to put a heating pad under a brood box in March to assist build up - but doesn't qualify that it's because it is still bloody cold over there and the beekeeping season is very short compared to ours. There are a lot of new(ish) beekeepers who read this forum and taking such ideas as gospel could be disastrous.

 

[Finman]

Feed them invert syrup at around 80% if you are worried, I think it's called ambrosia.
All they need to do with that is store it.
Of course it costs a little more than sugar..

Lidl's sugar is better.
.

 

[Finman]

Well - perhaps you are capable of being selective about what you take from those posts. I too am interested in beekeeping in foreign climes but the danger is that someone in a Scandihooligan country suggests that it's a good idea to put a heating pad under a brood box in March to assist build up - but doesn't qualify that it's because it is still bloody cold over there and the beekeeping season is very short compared to ours. There are a lot of new(ish) beekeepers who read this forum and taking such ideas as gospel could be disastrous.

Pargyle, do not do as I say, use your own brains. I can tell that I have taken only one advice from this forum during 10 years: How to mix syrup with loundry machine.
You forgot to mention 150 kg honey/ hive.

With electrict heating build up is 3 fold compared to natural
.

 

[Beefriendly]

Lidl's sugar is better.
.

And a lot cheaper.
Ambrosia is very expensive.