Tom Seeley - Darwinian Beekeeping

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Natural selection takes a long time, I get the whole Darwinian principle but when the issues are multiple and man made the odds are against survival.
It's like saying the Dodo should have evolved the ability to fly when man was eating them all then they would have been okay, evolution takes a lot of time and cannot be achieved overnight, saying in this case only the strongest will survive is ludicrous as the losses may be too great to recover.
 
I've always considered aggressive colonies that produce more honey than their neighbours do so because they are interfered with less.
Our bees are interfered with more than we would interfere with a "wild" colony but that is hardly surprising. We farm our bees so we are responsible for their well being.
The danger is that some people will jump on this as gospel and abandon looking after their bees entirely. You only have to dip a toe in the Flow forum where novices have done just that because that's what "natural stress-free beekeeping" is about to see how many are losing all their colonies and coming onto the forum to ask why!
People Science is what we need.
 
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In nature bees' best features are reproduction and aggression. Natural selection goes go that in few generation, if you do not keep on selection.
 
I've always considered aggressive colonies that produce more honey than their neighbours do so because they are interfered with less.
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That is old fairytale.

Good yield is connected to hybrid vigour, but yield has nothing to do with aggression. Good yield comes from good pastures, not from hives.
 
Yes Derek, there are other alternatives.
It's all too easy to obfuscate issues, I prefer to keep it simple and understandable. Something along the lines of .....Keep vicious heavily parasitised bees!
In your apiary if you wish, over my dead body in mine.

What you seem to be suggesting is that every beekeeper goes along with this "new" compromise, whatever it may be. Something that simply won't happen in reality, an improbability if you like.

on top of false dichotomy you put words in another's mouth and add fatalism, what ever happened to moderation and reasoned argument
 
on top of false dichotomyyou put words in another's mouth and add fatalism, what ever happened to moderation and reasoned argument

What part of "I am aware there are other alternatives but I try to keep it simple." don't you understand?
 
Natural selection takes a long time, I get the whole Darwinian principle but when the issues are multiple and man made the odds are against survival.
It's like saying the Dodo should have evolved the ability to fly when man was eating them all then they would have been okay, evolution takes a lot of time and cannot be achieved overnight, saying in this case only the strongest will survive is ludicrous as the losses may be too great to recover.

A small correction - Darwinism is not about the 'strongest' surviving, it's about the 'fittest' surviving. Being 'fitter' than the competition could - for example - involve having higher intelligence, or having a better form of camouflage to avoid predation.

It's worth bearing in mind that Darwinism is a theory, and one with lots of 'holes' in it. It's a plausible theory when considering (say) the longer tail-length of a fish, which might help it to swim faster and thus evade predation, so that increased numbers of longer-tailed fish then survive to breed, and eventually whose numbers eclipse those of shorter-tailed fish.

But although Darwin's theory works reasonably well when considering such a gradual development (rendering that species increasingly 'fitter' as the process proceeds), it falls over badly when considering abrupt physiological changes such as the initial development of wings, for example. Until wings are fully functional, along with the required muscles, controlling nerves and a higher nervous system to provide the necessary coordination, a 'wing-in-development' offers no advantage whatsoever, and indeed presents as a liability rendering the organism far more likely to be predated than if the stub wing did not exist. The same argument applies to vestigial eyes and other abrupt embryonic physiological developments.

And - most importantly - Adaptation by Natural Selection requires fecundity. Fish, as mentioned earlier, have such fecundity: thousands of female 'gene-carriers' - each of which can go on to produce thousands more of their kind - can be produced from the survival of just one more-successful (i.e. 'fitter') individual. But honey bees are NOT fecund. Huge numbers of female individuals may indeed be produced in the life of a colony, but they are all (except for new queens) genetically sterile and therefore cannot pass on their genes in the large numbers required for Natural Selection. Fecundity is a female-based dynamic - and as we know, honey bees spread their genes via drones.

But it is ONLY in the formation of a new Queen that a new genetic phenotype can be expressed - and new queens occur in very small numbers indeed. It is this absence of fecundity which is, I would suggest, the very reason why the honey bee has not changed significantly over millions of years.
LJ
 
Honeybees practice a form of polyandry where a single queen mates with 15 to 20 drones. There is increasing evidence the reason for doing this is to ensure survival of the colony even when challenged by multiple new threats. Applying mating principles from the animal world - such as for cattle - to the honeybee will always fail to explain how bees live and thrive. The best way I've found to view mating in honeybees is to consider the drones as flying gametes. Queens that mate with more "gametes" express traits that lead to better survival.
 
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If you look the explanation, what darwinism is, it means that species have developed via natural selection.

And the alternative was, God made them.

Taming animals and breeding them, it is not natural selection. I select the mother queen. I can change the whole apiary genetically.

I have no space to Darwin in my apiary.
 
misdirection as though the following this was all the content you wrote
Yes Derek, there are other alternatives.
It's all too easy to obfuscate issues, I prefer to keep it simple and understandable.
when you also said
a 2nd false dichotomy
YSomething along the lines of .....Keep vicious heavily parasitised bees!
In your apiary if you wish, over my dead body in mine.
and then you put words in my mouth
What you seem to be suggesting is that every beekeeper goes along with this "new" compromise, whatever it may be.
and adding fatalism
Something that simply won't happen in reality, an improbability if you like.
 
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That is funny. Somebody said in California, that Darwinism, and now it a battle in British forum.

This is first time, what I have met, that Darvinism and beekeeping are connected.

Honeybee is half wild domestic animal and it does not help beekeeping even if you read Darwin's book 10 times
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Biggest happening in Darwinism has bee human race breeding at the first half of 1900-century. Breeding human population in Western European countries was a huge project. Like in my country, thousands of disable people have been strerilized annually 50 years ago.

Yeah... What to do to those all mongrell hives...
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If people want varroa resistant bees in the US they can adopt the Africanized bee. It has been shown to be highly resistance to varroa for a number of reasons.

Sadly those reasons are why many people don't want to keep them: swarming, highly defensive etc.

The European bee has been breed over 1000s of years to be docile, low swarming etc.

I don't really think it follows that 'survivor stock' is any better that managed stock if you aren't selecting for a range of traits not just their ability to deal with high varroa loads. If anything you run the risk of weakening your stock.

My first selection criteria for bees I want to raise queens from is their strength in the spring - have they over wintered well and building up quickly. For me that's a key sign that they are good bee stock. Stuff after that's a bonus - but - merely making it through the season without dying isn't a consideration for me.

Personally I'll continue to monitor varroa levels and treat when required. If others choose not to that's fine by me; they aren't my bees so aren't my business.
 
If people want varroa resistant bees in the US they can adopt the Africanized bee. It has been shown to be highly resistance to varroa for a number of reasons.
There are plenty of European derived bees with high levels of mite resistance. They just aren't in your neck of the woods yet.

Sadly those reasons are why many people don't want to keep them: swarming, highly defensive etc.
Swarming and defensiveness are typical of unselected bees. This is how bees survive without human intervention. It is not necessary to tie swarming and defensiveness to mite resistance. I am gradually shifting the genetics of my bees to reduce swarming and have already shifted them away from defensiveness.

The European bee has been breed over 1000s of years to be docile, low swarming etc.
Your numbers are off a tad. They have been bred for about 150 years with most of that in the last 70 years.

I don't really think it follows that 'survivor stock' is any better that managed stock if you aren't selecting for a range of traits not just their ability to deal with high varroa loads. If anything you run the risk of weakening your stock.
Agree that a range of traits are important in bee breeding. Bees with good mite resistance keep mite loads so low as to be undetectable. That doesn't mean they have all the traits desired in productive managed colonies. What they do have is an abundance of opportunity to select for traits amenable to beekeeping.
 
Your numbers are off a tad. They have been bred for about 150 years with most of that in the last 70 years.

There is documentary evidence that bees were cultivated by Egyptians in permanent hives. I think it's unlikely that selection only happened when the moveable frame appeared.
 
Personally I'll continue to monitor varroa levels and treat when required. If others choose not to that's fine by me; they aren't my bees so aren't my business.

Could be your business if you bees rob out your 'treatment free' neighbour just after you finished your autumn mite treatment !
 
So should we be small hive beekeeping?
Keeping our bees in the equivalent of a ten frame langstroth?
Letting them swarm....albeit into a nearby box of our choosing?
Letting the brood nest contract in the autumn so that the bees can lay down stores around them for winter?

I think I already do that.
What I can't do is space my hives 100 metres apart
 

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