To nuc or not to nuc

[susan2016]

He peeps
Can you please advise me as I'm trying to work out a budget for next year. I have two hives and don't want to increase. Should I invest in a nuc next year when swarming starts and is it correct that I put the swarm into the nuc? Also, what do I do with them after that?! Do I then join to my existing hives and if so how? Would appreciate your advice.

 

[gavin]

Not asking the She-peeps too?! Sorry ....

A prime swarm may well be too big for a nuc box.

You should be trying to avoid swarming by giving space early enough then doing an artificial swarm when/if you see them making preparations. An empty full brood box (and floor, roof, crown board) is best for that. Might need one for each colony.

To fuse the two colonies after an artificial swarm the easiest way is to unite with a sheet of newspaper between two full-sized boxes. Not easy if they are in a nuc box.

If you have two colonies raring to go in the spring and this is your first time in that situation, I'd make sure that you know experienced beekeepers locally who you can call upon.

hope that helps

Gavin

 

[Winker]

If you don't want increase, having 2 Nucs for swarm control is fine, but your going to need another normal Brood box to allow you to combine the Nuc with the main hive latter.

Once you have done your swarm control (using the nucs) by doing an AS you would then wait for a while so the new virgin queen has time to get mated start laying and you can see she is performing well. Then kill your old queen in the Nuc and place your spare normal brood box on top of the existing brood box to unite using the paper method, placing the frames from the Nuc into the top brood box.


Clear as mud

 

[susan2016]

Hi, thanks for that. The problem is I work full time and am not always around the hives to see what's going on in preparation for the swarm. I guess I should have on an empty super all the time. But if swarming is a natural phenomena anyway then why suppress it - why shouldn't we let the bees swarm then put the swarm into a new hive to gain increase?

How long should i leave the swarm in the nuc box before putting them into a hive? If I wanted to sell the bees, do I do it a couple of days after I put them in the nuc box?
Sorry to ask so many questions under one thread.

 

[Poly Hive]

A competent beekeeper prides themselves on NOT having swarms, as in spotting the preparations and guiding the bees in the way the beekeeper wants them to go, in one fell swoop achieving what the bees and beekeeper wants.

Having a swarm on a bush or worse under a neighbors roof is a failure.

PH

 

[Flatters]

Hi Susan
The idea is to inspect and monitor for swarming behaviour and then take action at the right time by doing an AS and this should stop the swarming. It is not wise to let them swarm on their own and then you expect to catch the swarm. If you do this you will more than likely lose half your bees. They may also have made more than one QC and the colony will produce cast swarms and you will lose more bees.

You need to try and manage this process.

 

[Winker]

Swarms scare the hell out of people who don't know anything about bees. So for that reason alone I would not advise you just letting them get on with it.

You should be inspecting your bees weekly during swarming season and that should give you more than enough time to deal with any impending swarms.

Secondly I would not recommend selling the split if you didn’t know that your main hive has a good laying queen in it first, which will take anything from 3 weeks to see she is laying and maybe another month to make sure she is as good as you old queen if not better. No sense of selling an old queen that’s better that the New queen.

Then there is the question of, does the buyer want a Nuc headed by an old queen or a new queen? I would want a new queen from that season not last seasons queen, unless its an over wintered Nuc

 

[keith pierce]

A competent beekeeper prides themselves on NOT having swarms.

> every beekeeper in the country will be imcompetent at some stage, because things will go pair shaped no matter how good you are , but in saying that if you just let your bees swarm then your future honey crop for that year will be gone as well.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

But if swarming is a natural phenomena anyway then why suppress it - why shouldn't we let the bees swarm then put the swarm into a new hive to gain increase?

Sadly they may not stay in a nice nearby, accessible place and wait for you to get back from work and retrieve them

The instinct isn't really being suppressed, more redirected.

 

[Storm™]

I laughed at that too. If that statement were true at least 90% on here are incompetent (which obviously they arent i hasten to add) because at least every page of threads has "swarmed now what" in it lol.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Hi, thanks for that. The problem is I work full time and am not always around the hives to see what's going on in preparation for the swarm. I guess I should have on an empty super all the time. But if swarming is a natural phenomena anyway then why suppress it - why shouldn't we let the bees swarm then put the swarm into a new hive to gain increase?

The whole art of Beekeeping is to control the swarm instinct by using an artificial swarm for increase or re combining later for honey , if your bees swarm then i agree with PH, you are not a beekeeper, you are just a keeper of Bees

if you are unsure how to carry out an artificial swarm then the pictorial illustrations in a book like the Haynes Bee manual are excellent

apart from annoying the neighbours and getting bee keeping a bad name then two small colonies produce far less honey than one big colony

 

[gavin]

Hi Susan

OK, a check list for you ....

- make sure that your queen is marked with a spot of paint, otherwise you'll never find her once the colony is booming as it will be before it swarms

- best time is when the colony is small and the area with eggs and young larvae quite small (when the queen is just getting established, autumn, early spring)

- watch out in April and May for i) queen cups with eggs (swarming not quite imminent, they will not usually let the first ones develop), ii) queen cups being drawn out and with larvae with lots of royal jelly (you have only a couple of tops days to act to head off a swarm). You need to be going through your colonies weekly at this stage.

- split the colony with the old queen in one part and one good queen cell in the other (alternatives exist)

All this is very daunting the first time you do it in a powerful colony which is why I think you need to get to know other beekeepers locally.

best wishes

Gavin

 

[oliver90owner]

why shouldn't we let the bees swarm then put the swarm into a new hive to gain increase?

One very simple reason. You stated it in post #1. You don't want to increase!

I think we need some joined up thinking on this one. Anyway, increase or not, the process is far better to be under your control. That way you arrange for when they 'swarm' - as in 'artificial swarm' so you can go to work without the high possibility of losing half your bees and most of your potential honey crop to come (and some already collected).

Get a sheet of paper and draw a time line for all this. It will perhaps then be apparent regarding the whys and wherefores.

 

[susan2016]

One very simple reason. You stated it in post #1. You don't want to increase!

I think we need some joined up thinking on this one.


Thanks Oliver. Nothing wrong with 'unjoined up thinking'. I stated there were many questions under one thread and apologised for that. The question was not to do with MY hives but a generic beekeeping question.'m a novice beekeeper, not a novice thinker. Anyway, thanks for the rest of your answer.

Thanks Gavin for your reply. I think there ARE some practices a novice shouldn't do just because they have just read them in a book/magazine and there's nothing wrong admitting you need to experience something under the eye of an older beekeeper first. Cheers!

 

[busybee53]

To add to Gavin's post about uniting from a nuc. Had to do that this year. I should have put the frames from the nuc into a brood body before using the newspaper method to unite, but didn't have the equipment. Had to use a super on top of an apiguard rim (eke) to hold the frames. Worked a trreat though.

 

[susan2016]

Busy bees - how long in time did you wait before moving them from the nuc?

 

[gavin]

The friend of mine who got me into beekeeping had a simple annual cycle with his one hive: Artificial swarm in May, leave the two colonies separate for the summer, unite in autumn. Usually the new queen took over. Sometimes things went wrong but he had an old beekeeper along the road to help him out.

These days with Varroa and whatnot queen mating seems less reliable. Also, if you are planning to unite more quickly, perhaps when the new queen's new brood is starting to emerge (perhaps 7 weeks after you make the split, don't do it before) you would be wise to kill the old queen in case the wrong one wins. Maybe at that point you could lay her aside in a nuc with a few frames of bees until you know all is well. All of this assumes that you can find the queen and check colonies for additional queen cells of course.

The short answer would have been - about two months if you'd like the uniting to go well. A week for the queen to hatch, three weeks for mating, three weeks for her first brood to emerge, then she's ready. Another week in case the mating was delayed.

G.

 

[Poly Hive]

I am intrigued by the stream of provocative issues the nick of susan2016 is raising.

One is reasonable, two is curious, more than four is more than coincidence or am I being paranoid?

PH

 

[Easy Beesy]

Hi Susan
You ask “ if swarming is a natural phenomena anyway then why suppress it - why shouldn't we let the bees swarm then put the swarm into a new hive to gain increase?”
No-on suggested you suppress it. Beekeepers generally work with the swarming instinct to avoid the loss of their bees, and avoid creating a nuisance to others.
And in a previous post you stated that “I think it is better to let the bees themselves decide what is needed and if they want to rear another queen they know the signs better for doing so better than we do.”
If the bees do ‘want to rear another queen’ you will have a job on your hands changing their minds!
You might find yourself in difficulties if you leave the bees to their own devices
You also mentioned that “A friend divided my beehive last May because he thought it was going to swarm.”
Have you asked him/her for their advice – I assume s/he has more beekeeping experience than you so if they helped you before they may be willing to help you again – they know your circumstances and may be able to give you targeted advice.

 

[Easy Beesy]

PH posted - I am intrigued by the stream of provocative issues the nick of susan2016 is raising

suspicions aroused here too