To die for

[m100]

Leaving the hive to look after itself....is the more "queen-friendly" approach!

Pre varroa it might have worked in a fashion, but a truly hands off approach will ultimately lead to far more bees dying in the surrounding area and a whole heap of very pissed off beekeepers. I'd support compulsory (free and to always remain free) registration of beekeepers and apiaries but I guess I'm in a minority.

It's bad enough trying to prevent green party voting eco do gooders feeding bees imported AFB spore containing honey after reading about it being a good idea in a newspaper without having a potentially disease laden colony on our doorstep that is somehow deemed sacred.

Of course I feel bad if I accidentally squash a bee, but it happens, I sometimes put bees out of their misery if I can see they are damaged with K wing or a wasp attack. I try and put it right by going out of my way to rescue a few on a day when the weather turns bad.

But I know beyond any shadow of doubt that I've killed thousands more bees than a normal member of the public.

 

[Crg]

Guys, I need your opinions good or bad, I respect them all. I am Buddhist by belief, and if I were to be in a position to start a colony of bees and re-queen every year or so, how would I do it without killing the present queen which is imposshble in line with what I believe.Serious answers only please.

A few commercial NZ beekeepers wrap the base of a soon to hatch queen cell in foil (to protect it) and just pop that in the hive - the new queen in most cases in their experience will kill the existing queen.

Not sure that would work so well in the UK with so many different strains around.

 

[davethegas]

The re- queening anually reference is from david cramps practical beekeeping.Remember, I do not keep bees, just asking in case I do!

 

[davethegas]

So people, to put this one to bed, as it has sparked healthy debate, keep bees as a buddhist, yes or no? Remember, I do not yet keep bees as I have a conscience!! (unlike many new beeks on forum who create havoc to bee welfare without criticism)

 

[Mike a]

Have you thought about grouping up with an experienced beek and see how you feel after a few inspections. If you do keep bees think of the benefits of helping mother nature which may calm any negative feelings you may have if (and lets be honest) when you will accidentally kill a bee.

 

[Brosville]

I wrote a long screed muttering darkly about control freak beekeepers, and the arrogance of the "ours is the only true way" attitude in keeping bees, and then decided to take a shorter and more pragmatic course - and suggest you get some better beekeeping books, at the "natural" end. "The Barefoot Beekeeper" would be a good place to start.... I have a good friend who is a Buddhist, so I'm sympathetic to the sort of problems you face - none are insurmountable....

 

[davethegas]

So, read all replies, m100, totally see where you are coming from, although you have your view, of which I have TOTAL respect, I am just a person interested in the welfare of bees.....whatever my belief. I hope you can respect that as I respect your view without reserve. Anyone want to discuss further, please text.

 

[BKF Admin]

I have received a reported post in this thread.
I can understand that certain topics(such as religion) can inflame some members to post their own opinions but please try to be respectful at all times.

Sometimes it is best to just move on to another thread rather than comment.

This could become one hell of a thread if we can keep bigotry under cntrol.

 

[rae]

You don't need to kill anything to keep bees. You could decide not to re-queen (ever) let them supercede, let them do whatever they wanted, that would be fine. Alternatively you could re-queen, and simply throw the old queen into the air, so that she flew off and starved to death.

The last point illustrates the moral dilemma, and what I think is the moral vacuum at the heart of the issue. As long as you don't precipitate death, you're happy, you've done the right thing. If you let the queen go, you've not killed her, but you've consigned her to a certain fate: death by starvation. Have you done the right thing: in my opinion no, you've simply absolved yourself of responsibility for the decision, and left her to a fate that is probably more unpleasant than a quick death. The same arguments apply to shooting a mangey fox.

Can you keep bees without killing queens? Sure, just let them die elsewhere. In all honesty, I don't see how you can keep bees without squashing the odd one. AFB would be interesting, you'd have to kill them all for the greater good, could you do that, or would you get someone else to do it?

(For the record, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just pointing out the consequences in the position you're taking).

Edit: would you kill varroa? If you aren't willing to slide the odd tray of apiguard (or whatever) in and kill hundreds of the sods, then beekeeping is probably going to be a problem for you.

 

[Poly Hive]

On a practical level, the level I operate on, it is pretty much impossible to keep bees with out killing them now and again.

That is just how it is.

PH

 

[Finman]

On a practical level, the level I operate on, it is pretty much impossible to keep bees with out killing them now and again.

That is just how it is.

PH

That is true. Ths is a very sad hobby. If the queen lays 1500 eggs a day, later 1500 bees will die every day.

The wintering hive has 40 000 bees and in May those are all dead.
What means then to kill one queen?

 

[Firegazer]

Super organism

Davethegas,
having just read Jurgen Tautz's book "The buzz about bees", I think there's another way of looking at this that might help.

Tautz points out that individual bees only exist (for any time) within a colony. The individual bees form different co-dependent parts of the colony, including the queen, and if you pan out a bit and look at things in this way a few things change:

1) the colony behaves in a way more like an intelligent mammal than an insect with only 1 million neurons in its 'brain' - clever foraging strategies, maintaining heat for the brood, feeding them special food like mother's milk to grow quickly, making a home to keep out the elements, etc

2) the breeding individuals (queen and drones) are very few, and the drones are only around for a while then die off when the breeding season is ended: the rest are all maintaining the colony infrastructure and gathering energy for keeping warm and so on - it's all about the colony

3) the colony itself is the creature - not the individual bees. The colony creates and disposes of individual bees like queens, drones and workers as it requires - they don't hang about when surplus to requirements, because this would detract from the best interests of the colony

4) the reproductive act is when the colony splits into two (or more) colonies, each containing the full spectrum of necessary bee castes to get going and grow up to full strength.

I think the 'thing' you should try not to kill is the colony. I think the individual bees (including the queen) are similar to skins cells or toenails - they serve a purpose for a while and are then shed to benefit the 'real' organism.

Most of the beekeepers here would kill the queen if necessary/useful, but that's not because they intend harm - in fact exactly the opposite - they are looking at the colony organism as the thing to protect, not staring in so close that the bees look like individuals.

Does that help?

FG

 

[Finman]

Most of the beekeepers here would kill the queen if necessary/useful, but
FG

The queen selecting is the basic of all domestic animal breeding.
If someone cannot stand it, it is better to keep fingers off the issue.

Most of beginners give up they notive that bees sting and to het easy honey is not true like in Donald Duck.

If you do not breed bees, they will become impossible to keep. And they deliver genes into surrounding too. Unbreeded bees are dangerous. They can attack and kill dogs, ducks, hen etc (seldom a human)


Vegans cannot accept the whole beekeeping. They have so many reasons.

The bee is an wild animal. To nurse them you need to learn first they natural habits and then try to affect their habits.

****

I have laughed many time to my wife. She had 1/2 year old baby on his arms on summer cottage yard. A bee attacked into her hair and I shouted:" keep calm. Squeeze the bee between fingers! "
My wife cast the baby onto lawn and escaped to the house. Then she shouted: Take the baby!

She was like a lizard who cut her tail....

 

[m100]

I am just a person interested in the welfare of bees.....

Aren't we all?

Some of us drive many miles to collect and home waifs and strays and then do all we can to help them survive.

 

[Somerford]

Interesting idea, I had never even considered the ramifications of keeping bees within the confines of a religious belief. It would make for challenging beekeeping as even the most careful beekeeper will crush bees accidentally. I wonder how they are kept in Nepal ?

I suppose my personal view would be that if I felt my belief stopped me from doing something I wanted to do, either I accept it, or I change my belief, but then it depends upon how steadfast one is in that belief in the first place.

The point touched upon by Firegazer that the colony is a living entity and will shed bees from it to survive is an interesting viewpoint, and I suppose if one was keeping bees from a purely ecological perspective, then it would be fine to loose a few, in order to maintain the colony.

I wonder what the religious view is to my own predicament that I now have 6 chickens, only one lays eggs, and 4 others have turned cannibal (ie they eat the eggs when they can). Do I stretch their necks as I have to feed them and one egg a day doesn't pay for the chicken feed ?!

regards

S

 

[margob99]

It would be good to hear from Davethegas regarding the questions about the moral dilemma in killing varroa or cockroaches ... how do you deal with that in terms of your Buddhist beliefs?

(This is a great discussion, btw)

 

[Floss]

Hmmm...interesting thread/comments - my understanding is that Buddism is a "philosophy" rather than a "religion" and, as Davethegas points out, it is the "intent" of an action/thought which is significant.

I have been beekeeping just one year having considered taking it up for some time - I am learning continously and take advice accordingly until I feel confident to make "informed" decisions concerning the hive wellbeing but, that said, I defer to the wisdom of the hive as a collective whenever possible. I too feel uncomfortable about killing queens and follow with interest the notion that "bees know best" and will replace queens with genetic traits appropraite to hive survival ie disease control, temperment, but that this may result in poor honey production for a while. But I am not doing it for the honey!

It is heartening to see that bee keeping is changing accordingly to demands placed upon bee survival and that practices will be re evaluated, some kept and some not. We have seen these challenge impact on other aspects of food/animal husbandary and I think that it is good that this forum is able to facilitate these discussion!

Hopefully the treatment and ex/importation of queens from around the planet to replace thoses unwanted queens will continue to be part of these discussions and some good will come from them.

Regards all - Floss

 

[xwb]

as mentioned before, I don't know how this would tie in with your religion but thinking of the colony as one organism is probably the best way, and that the queen laying eggs is reproduction of cells and when the colony swarms it is like an animal producing offspring..

Xan

 

[susbees]

http://quangminh.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=604rganic-bee-keeping-project&catid=91roject&Itemid=273

Wonder how they will manage their hives/colony temper in a city? Maybe worth talking to them.

I also have a contact who runs a honey farm in Nepal and speaks good English so we could find out how they manage their bees in Nepal.

Third, as you're 25 minutes from us Dave, we have TBH here as well as conventional so maybe worth looking at as a method. Very many fewer bees are squashed sliding the bars than you get reassembling boxes and we never smoke them.

The comments from Tautz are interesting...well worth a read if you haven't done so.

 

[tkwinston4]

Just wanted to add my point of view into the mix.

Some of these comments do sound like they are having a go at davethegas but i am aware that many people on here say it how it is. With the exception of Finman i suspec that the others are Northerners Mind you Finland is North Oh and i am not Northerist - i married one!

Well i just want to say good on you davethegas for having the guts to say what you believe in and to be proud of it especially as its not the norm.

Being one of those freaky vegetarians (not a vegan tho, that is far too difficult) i can totally sympathise with davethegas for not wanting to kill the queen, i toyed with the idea of not killing her for some time but i have come to realise through experience that to ensure the survival of the honey bee (which is what i am in this for) i will at some point have to bump her off and doing it quickly and cleanly is what i plan on doing - or maybe asking my husband to do it

Either way it will play on my conscience (as it does every time i accidently kill a bee or one stings me) but i am able to justify what i have done.

However i am not in any way saying this is how davethegas should do things, i do think you will struggle with your conscience though and you may find that beekeeping is not for you.

The above is purely my opinion bee it right or wrong in your eyes.

Is it beer o'clock yet?