Time for a new queen?

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eleanor20

New Bee
Joined
Jan 26, 2012
Messages
94
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Location
North Wiltshire
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
3 National 1 TBH 1WBC
Help, one of my colonies is EVIL!
I have a colony in a poly hive, their queen is just starting her third season. I have tried to inspect twice this year so far and they are really nasty. I have not seen HM, but have seen a little capped brood and some uncapped, I haven't spotted eggs but not really tried very hard as so distracted by the nasty bees! Bees are covering 5 frames.

For info these are darkish coloured bees from a swarm caught locally. A few feet away I have a similar sized colony of same type of bees. I also have a third national hive of buckfasts which are really going strong, lots of BIAS.

I have a couple of ideas of what to do but would like to know what would you do? :thanks:
 
I,d dress up in bomb proof suit, find HM. kill her and give frame of eggs from another hive, take half an inch of wax from under good group of eggs, scraping back to foundation. This is where queen cells will be made, destroy all other queen cells. Keep an eye on those cells and hope new queen is better. If I don,t need that colony I would unite.
E
 
Yep, I had similar colony- de queened and requeened 24 hrs later (£40 Italian) in a queen cage- they killed her. Final warning - frame of eggs- or the petrol comes out!!!:nono:

Have to say ALL my colonies are unpleasant so far - in my face, warning, following, rude:calmdown: . I think all are anxious about progress as only just getting brood going though all Q right (except for above), so I will allow them to settle....
 
one of my queens was an exceptional layer last season and is this season, how much( in laymans terms) is this down to genetics and how much is this simply down to being well mated? when her daughters raise Queen cells what is the probability of the new Queens being like her Mum if raised and mated from a mini nuc with any old Drones?
 
Yep, I had similar colony- de queened and requeened 24 hrs later (£40 Italian) in a queen cage- they killed her.

Ha been there done that I introduced a £40 NZ queen, 3 days in the cage, released her with no problem, no balling, no attack she just happily walked across the frame; the only thing is I never saw her again, no queen and no eggs.

I dropped a frame of eggs in from another hive and let them raise their own.
 
Re the OP from Eleanor - basically as Enrico, but not necessarily just yet.

For Heather, introduce to a small group of young bees in a nuc and then unite later.

Sor Holly Bees It is a lottery as to next generation. Lay rate is genetics, wall mated will be for the longevity of the queen in fertility terms. Whetehe r a mini nuc or a standard nuc should make no odds, but they do reckon a standard nuc is better (those who use mini nucs will, of course, disagree!).
 
Do as Enrico says and dress up so that you are safe and don't have to think about the attacking bees.

Don't take action with your egg frame until there are drones aplenty. Cull drones from the vile ones.

I have to do the same thing, I'm waiting a few weeks before I do.

Cazza
 
Is her grumpyness marked

If you need assistance with finding her, or making the change pm me. I have dealt with a good number of foul colonys.
 
If you can, remove the hive 10-20 yards away or so from where it usually sits then all the better - it'll keep a lot of the flyers away from you whilst performing the 'operation'.

This from Michael Bush:

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Requeening Hot Bees

A really vicious hive is in great need of requeening, but is also the most difficult to find a queen in. Between the distraction of a hundred thousand bees trying to kill you and the bees running all over the combs, the vicious queen is also usually quite mobile and hard to find. Also, though, keep in mind that a queenless hive can get vicious, so try to make sure you have eggs or signs of a queen before you spend a lot of time trying to find her. Also check for signs of queenlessness like a dissonant roar when the hive isn't even being opened. When I need to requeen, here is what I have done under those circumstances.

First, Be prepared to be stung. Be prepared to walk away for a while. Be prepared to run away for a while. I find running through some brush is a good way to get rid of clinging and following bees.
Divide and conquer. The object of this is to split the hive up into manageable parts. One part will be an empty box at the old location to draw off the field bees, who are usually the hardest to deal with and we will know there is no queen there. If you have a dolly and some help, you may be able to move the hive in one piece 10 yards away or so and put an empty box at the old location to get these field bees out before dealing with the hive at all. I never have that much help, so I just do a box at a time from the start. We want all the rest of the boxes of the hive on their own bottom with their own top. Each will need a queen, so order one more queen than the number of boxes on the hive. Now set as many bottom boards, ten steps away from the original hive, as there are boxes in the original hive. Make sure you have a full bee suit, have rubber bands on your ankles to keep them out of your pants, have a zip on veil and leather gauntlet gloves. Put as many lids as you have boxes next to the hive and one extra bottom. Get the smoker going really well and smoke the hive until smoke is rolling out. Now pry the top box loose leaving on the lid. Set it on the bottom and set one of the lids on the top of the main hive. Carry the removed box to one of the bottom boards. Take note of any that seem to have the most bees (most likely to be brood or have a queen). Repeat this until there are NO boxes left on the original bottom. If you didn't move the whole hive, now put an empty box with frames on the bottom board and a cover on that. This is to catch the field bees coming back. Now walk away and come back in a hour or a day.
When you come back start with the most populated boxes that are most likely to have a queen. Set another bottom board and an empty box (no frames) on that. Smoke lightly this time. You don't want to run the queen around too much. Wait a minute. Open the box and look for the frame with the most bees and pull it looking for the queen. If you find her, kill her. If not put that frame in the empty box and keep going through all the frames. If you can't handle them at this strength then split the 10 frames into two five frame nucs. Let the nucs settle down and then look through them. Find the queen and killed her. Leave as often as you want to let them calm down, but stay at it until you are done. Look for clues. The box with the most bees is probably the one with the queen. After the queen is dead any box that has been queenless at least 24 hours is ready to be requeened. Introduce a caged queen. Don't open up the candy, just put the queen in with the screen down so the bees can feed her. Some vicious bees will not accept a new queen. Don't worry about it for now. Whatever ones do can be combined with whatever ones don't. After three or four days I take out the cork and poke a hole in the candy or, if the bees seem eager to get her out and are not biting and posturing at the screen wire, I might just pop open the screen and let her out.

Four or five weak vicious hives are much less aggressive than one big vicious hive so immediately they should be somewhat calmer. In six weeks or so they will be much calmer. In 12 weeks or so they should be back to normal.
If you want to save even looking for the queen you can wait overnight after you do the break up, and put a queen in a candy cage in each box. Come back the next day after that and see if there is a dead queen or one where they are biting the cage. The one where they are biting the cage or have killed the queen is probably the one with the queen. Look there. If you have to put half of the frames in another box and let them calm down again and search even less bees. Afterwards you can pull the cork on the candy end and let the bees release the queens in each box. If the new queen for the box with the queen is dead, you can combine it back with one of the boxes with a queen cage. You can also requeen the field bees, but they will be more difficult. You can also do a newspaper combine with them after you get the queen accepted in one of the splits.

Michael Bush
 
Thanks everyone. I think I will leave them a while, they are not so bad that they cause a nuisance as long as you don't try to open the hive! Then I will try to get them to raise their own from a frame of buckfast eggs. Do I need to leave a few days between culling HM and adding the frame of eggs to ensure they use the right eggs, or would it be better to add straight away then check later and remove any QC not on the right frame?


Thanks for the offer peteinwilts, will let you know if I get stuck but I do enjoy a challenge! Where abouts are you?
 
I think I might try a variation of some of these ideas.

Move the colony and put an empty hive (maybe a nuc) on their old stand.
The foraging bees (the older ones, with the best developed stings) will bleed off into the new hive.
Putting a frame of your Buckfast eggs and brood into that new hive would allow the foragers to revert to nurse and raise themselves a queen cell. A frame with plenty pollen would be a good thing to give them as well. You could give them syrup, a reduced entrance and a few frames of foundation, and they will busy themselves with setting up home.

After a couple of decent flying days, almost all of the foraging bees should have left the old colony (though like Pagden, you could move it a second time, to bleed off yet more fliers). This should make queen-finding much easier - and you can play tricks like spreading the frames in pairs -- she'll go to the middle of one or other of the sandwiches.
Depending on remaining stores, you could feed them more syrup, and after you have found and killed the evil queen, you'll need to ensure they have plenty pollen. They'll raise a few emergency cells.
Cull their drone brood (again!)

You should have two colonies raising queens.
Once their worker brood starts emerging you can begin assessing their tempers.
You could then either choose one immediately and proceed to unite, or, disliking both, replace one with a bought-in queen (easier into a nuc-size colony) and having ensured that she is firing on all cylinders and accepted, then do the unite around her.

Only problem with this scheme is that second generation Buckfasts (deserved or not) don't have the best of reputations.
However, you should get two queens to choose between.

I wouldn't think of waiting very long to start, maybe another fortnight. Start of June should be fine for mating. So mid July for assessment and recombining...
 
If the nasty colony was on double brood (which I don't think it is, but never mind!), I would put a queen excluder between the two brood boxes and leave for a week.

After a week, you can split the colony in half, and (as per Michael Bush) two small evil colonies are easier to deal with than one big one.

One half will have some unsealed brood, and therefore also the queen. Find her, get rid of her, and unite this half with a good colony. Slight downside is that your good colony may now have a proportion of grumpy bees for the next 6 weeks.

The other half, with no unsealed brood, can be given a frame of eggs from a good colony and left to sort themselves out.
 
I think I might try a variation of some of these ideas.

A good try at an alternative, but flawed from the start, in my book.

The colony is clearly not a strong one and further splitting before raising emergency queen cells will almost certainly be a serious down-side to this ploy.

As an aside neither of the last two years have been good for mating in May. Of course this year could be different, but I am not holding my breath waiting for it! The one up-side is that queen cells started now could well be mated in June. Everything is about a month behind the 'norm', so I am waiting a good deal longer before taking any precipitate action...
 
One of my Hives have become extremely aggressive.
I did manage to find and get rid of the Queen this week,
and have attempted to re-Queen.
I realised afterwards it would have been a good idea to remove some of the brood as well (especially any uncapped cells - Dont want them building emergency Queen cells).

Tomorrow I am out with the Bee Inspector all morning, checking the Health of my colonies.
It will be interesting to see what she advises.
Though I shall advise her not to go near this Hive.

After I put the new Queen in I checked my suit for evidence of stings.
There were hundreds.
I have warned them that if they kill their new Queen I shall be closing the entrance on them and getting rid of them - before a member of the public gets hurt.

They would make great Guard Bees, and I would love to move them to the field where my Hives were stolen a few years back.
Anyone that were to steal these would be dead within hours of getting them to their 'Hide-out'. :)
Though with our legal system being what it is I would probably get arrested for man slaughter and have to pay compensation to the 'Victims' family :(
 
I think I might try a variation of some of these ideas.

A good try at an alternative, but flawed from the start, in my book.

The colony is clearly not a strong one and further splitting before raising emergency queen cells will almost certainly be a serious down-side to this ploy.

...

Well if it really is that weak, then it ought to be fairly easy to find (and kill) the evil queen after bleeding off the foragers, as per step 1.
The possibility then exists of immediate recombination (putting the brood back where they started) and letting them raise an emergency queen.

If there were enough bees, I'd like to try to raise two - more hope of one being friendlier!
 
Thanks for the offer peteinwilts, will let you know if I get stuck but I do enjoy a challenge! Where abouts are you?

I live in Little Somerford between Malmesbury and Brinkworth. You?
 
I live in Little Somerford between Malmesbury and Brinkworth. You?
Thanks Pete, I'm in Purton, so not far away!


Thank for all the advice. :thanks:
As originally stated they are not a very strong colony, and the queen is marked so it shouldn't be too hard to find her. I just needed to be sure of my plan before I went ahead and got stung (again!)
Not sure if I'll have the chance over the weekend but I'll let you know how I get on.
 
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