Time allowed for queen cells

[Antipodes]

I'm trying to make sure I have the timeline correct....2 questions (at least) here:

If I am performing the demaree swarm control method, how long do I wait to go in and remove the queen cells?

Trying to calculate ...assuming I have a few things correct..... say there is a freshly laid egg which will hatch on day four. For a further three days after this it can be turned into a queen larva by the workers. That makes 7 days. So say on day 8 of a demaree, it should not be possible for the workers to make a viable queen. Is this correct? If I demaree at 11am on the first of the month, and go back at 11am on the 8th and destroy all queen cells, would that cover me?

Wikipedia says 7 to 10 days on a demaree before removing cells. Is leaving it a few days longer (say up to day 10) safer/best or can it be done with confidence earlier?

Further, if I am trying to raise a queen from this method (just one), what is the best day to go in and choose the queen cell to be retained and what are the things I should look for in choosing that cell?

Thanks.

 

[eltalia]

Through observation you'll discover for yourself that four days you surmise is not correct.
But whatever - to make sure we are on the same page, and to head off what is sure to be
used as diversion - I use the same reference material as yourself for this (answer).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demaree_method
Demaree relied wholly on there being just two caste' of bees among worker bees, nurse and
forager. Since 1892 it has been determined there exist many more, and also an ability
to morph between each on demand. This alone shoots holes in the method and explains
many of the fails/drawbacks.
Also, fine as a 'experiment' such manipulation in an apiary holds no merit in time
management nor equipment use - highest rate of success uses "spacer" supers put to
no more use than simply isolating the upper brood.
Further, in selecting only capped brood to go with the queen the apiarist is performing
_more_ work than simply following another swarm management method of moving frames
above a QE and introducing drawn combs to the BC. Regressive beekeeping in outcomes.
Lastly? Swarming in and of itself whether allowed or thwarted through hardware manipulation
a l w a y s results loss of production in terms of efficiency for purpose the beekeeper engages
in. Therefore denying the urge before it ramps up is far more productive than a n y version of
the Demaree method one might engage in, or indeed any of the other options in hardware
manipulation.
Control the queen and you control the bees - never truer than in swarm season.
7-10days?
That expansion is used as it relates directly to what is known as the minimum/maximum
in i d e a l conditions, times where swarming is imminent and a colony is prepared to
accommadate the event. However again we now know it does occur under stress conditions
bees are well able to go beyond that expansion to morph 'old' larvae into queen
larvae and cap off as such. These"mongrel" QCs are very obvious in their final capped
stage and prolific enough to have many a b'keep asking "what are these".

Add to any of those 'negatives' the simple Truth it is way more productive for the modern
Apiarist to investigate denying the swarm urge through passive noninvasive methods and
you too will conclude Demarree was simply entertaining an eccentricity, simply because he
could.
Something many a beekeeper today also pursues.
Help?

Bill

 

[Welshboyarchrr]

By day 8 all brood should be capped. I have never heard or read of brood being uncapped and reformed to try and make a queen, but someone more experienced may be along to correct me. Bear in mind though that they may have made a queen cell from a 3 day old larvae. 3 days as an egg, 3 days as larvae plus 10 days wait could equal queen emerging 10 minutes before you inspect to knock back queen cells. 8 days is starting to look like the best option.
With regard to selecting one cell to rear - it's a lottery. Most would say to pick the biggest and lumpiest as that may have received the most attention.

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks Bill and Welshboyarchrr.

Ok, so I'll go in at day 8 to remove them, that sounds reasonable to me.

Just on modified/morphed/altered cells, I've only ever done one of these demaraees, and I did see some queen cells that I wan't expecting to see after the 10 day timeline ( I'd previously destroyed all queen cells up to day 8 or 9), and when I opened them up to look inside, there were rotting little pupae in them, but nothing live. I'm not sure what they were actually.

With selecting a queen cell I've realised I was not clear in my initial post sorry. What I plan on doing is going in to choose an open cell (rather than a fully formed and capped queen cell) and then marking it with a red pin next to it to remember where it is. I think perhaps at day 4 or 5 , but I'm not sure how to tell if it has been made from a young enough larva. Any ideas on that please ?

 

[Welshboyarchrr]

If bees have the choice they will naturally select the most suitable eggs/larvae from what is available. As long as you gave them access to young enough brood I would think any queen cells you find on day 4/5 would be viable. They still may not hatch though.

 

[eltalia]

Simple enough to scratch a line around areas you expect those eggs to
be taken up, 4/5 days later the larvae in cups in that area are your
new starts. As the Welsh chap says don't expect them all (started) to
get to capped stage.
There is a misunderstanding in that earlier late brood switch, they
switch on the larvae _before_ capping - they won't (cannot) uncap
brood and switch. Clear?
What you describe as deformed or dead mongrel pupae is exactly
what happens when this late switching turns on.

Bill

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks very much both of you. Excellent solutions.

 

[eltalia]

Thanks very much both of you. Excellent solutions.

Nooo wucken phareez, you're welcome.

Bill

 

[masterBK]

Sorry to be pedantic but they emerge from queen cells. Eggs hatch.

 

[Welshboyarchrr]

Sorry to be pedantic but they emerge from queen cells. Eggs hatch.

You are of course correct. Put down to a beginners mistake.

 

[Antipodes]

I hoping someone can tell me please how it is that on the 10th day after a split and on inspecting the queenless split, I find open decent size emergency queen cells with grubs in them which I estimate to be around the 2nd or 3rd day after egg hatch?

I went back on the 5th day after the split and removed all closed queen cells, leaving just two open ones with grubs in them, and went back today (10th day) to see if both had been capped (and then I would have removed one - both were capped), but I find quite a few open ones with young looking grubs in them that weren't there on day 5.

 

[madasafish]

I hoping someone can tell me please how it is that on the 10th day after a split and on inspecting the queenless split, I find open decent size emergency queen cells with grubs in them which I estimate to be around the 2nd or 3rd day after egg hatch?

I went back on the 5th day after the split and removed all closed queen cells, leaving just two open ones with grubs in them, and went back today (10th day) to see if both had been capped (and then I would have removed one - both were capped), but I find quite a few open ones with young looking grubs in them that weren't there on day 5.

Eggs laid 10 days ago would be 2 day old larvae on the 5th day when yoo left two open QCs and removed all others.. Bees will use those to make QCs..

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks Madasafish. If they started making queen cells with the two day old larvae on day five, at what day would they be capped would you estimate? I can't work out how they have done it, because I would have thought perhaps that the 2 day old larvae would be 7 days old now (7 days from hatching from the egg and ten days from egg lay) and should have been capped yesterday .......should't they?

The grubs I saw in the cells today really only look like they are 2nd or 3rd day after egg hatch...they are not very big and the cells look a few days from capping.

 

[Walrus]

I hoping someone can tell me please how it is that on the 10th day after a split and on inspecting the queenless split, I find open decent size emergency queen cells with grubs in them which I estimate to be around the 2nd or 3rd day after egg hatch?

I went back on the 5th day after the split and removed all closed queen cells, leaving just two open ones with grubs in them, and went back today (10th day) to see if both had been capped (and then I would have removed one - both were capped), but I find quite a few open ones with young looking grubs in them that weren't there on day 5.

Did you swap in a frame from the Q+ hive on day 5 when you checked the queenless one?

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Walrus,

No, I just went into the queenless split to remove all the capped queen cells and to choose a nice looking open one with a grub floating on royal jelly. I left two open ones and removed a few capped ones.

I went back yesterday to remove one of the two that I left open (they were both closed) and to make sure that there were no others that I missed and found many more open ones at a seemingly improbable stage of development. I see this on all the splits I do by the way....so it's not a one off. To me it seems that there are eggs hatching some days after the 4 day mark, which are then used to make queen cells.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Walrus,

No, I just went into the queenless split to remove all the capped queen cells and to choose a nice looking open one with a grub floating on royal jelly. I left two open ones and removed a few capped ones.

To me it seems that there are eggs hatching some days after the 4 day mark, which are then used to make queen cells.

Can bees hold eggs back?
Do eggs at the periphery of the brood nest take longer to hatch if they are cooler?

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Dani,

I don't think the first one (well I've not heard of it....and I'm not really sure I know what you mean), but I guess the second one is possible ....and if it is, I wonder what is the longest time it could take for an egg to hatch?

 

[Walrus]

OK then - probably drones (unfertilised eggs laid the day you did the split). They would not yet be capped on day 10.

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Walrus...ok, I see, so they are making queen over/from drone eggs. I guess when they are capped the grubs will just die.

 

[Walrus]

Hi Walrus...ok, I see, so they are making queen over/from drone eggs. I guess when they are capped the grubs will just die.

I don't know, but I wouldn't let it get that far. Do you have a photo?