Timber for hives

[Loxley]

Cedar needs no protection for it's entire life.

Pine and so on must be treated: in Australia and the US they dip boxes in hot liquid paraffin; painting is pointless as it prevents the wood breathing and the paint blisters. Some use ply - I have a few boxes from somewhere that are still going - but it's heavy, absorbs moisture if not sealed and usually has a short life.

The lighter the wood the better, and cedar is not only the lightest but has the best thermal efficiency of timber, and thermal efficiency is what bees would choose and what allows the colony to work most effectively.

Check out thermodynamist Derek Mitchell's work: here are samples: According to universally accepted standards, soft pine offers an R-value of about 1.12 per inch. [4] Therefore, the ¾ inch pine boxes we typically use provide an R-value of about 0.84. Conversely, a colony surrounded by 5 inches of wood in a natural softwood tree benefits from an R-value of about 5.6 or about six times the insulation quality of a typical bee box and that’s just the outside walls.

Here's another: Depending on relative water content of the enclosure material, the difference in heat transfer may be as large as a factor of 4 to 7 times for wooden hives and 1.5 to 5 times for full-size expanded polystyrene hives (Fig. 2, Table 2) compared to tree enclosures.

As you're unlikely to want to saw up 150mm insulation boards to make your hives, your best bet is a Welsh sawmill cutting up Welsh cedar.

Thanks for the links. Interesting stuff.

I'll be speaking to one of my preferred sawyers this week so I'll see if he has any cedar in the yard.

 

[Loxley]

I received some seasoned Douglas Fir from a friend recently and have made a few hives out of it, really nice to work with, great colour, but they are quite heavy. Timber treatment will be required

Thanks! I had thought Dougie might be a good option as it's fairly light (compared to oak) though not as light as cedar by all accounts! It's also one of the timbers I am likely to get offcuts of as I use it for jobs sometimes though it would require a bit of resawing and drying out! It is a lovely timber though and not to sappy.

 

[Loxley]

Maybe worth research wax dipping. But if you go that route, be VERY aware of the safety considerations while you are doing it.

Thanks, I'll give it a look but I'll probably stick with raw linseed oil for now!

 

[Loxley]

I have used WRC, exterior ply and pallets for building hives.
Wrc is by far the best.
Pallets painted with Salodin type wood preservative last very well.
Exterior ply similarly treated last between 8 and 10 years.
WRC is also the lightest and 14x12 brood boxes made of ply can be heavy.
A colleague has some supers given him by another carpenter/cabinet maker made from teak type hardwood. They are beautifully made with tight dovetails and joints. They will last for ever but Sean is in his eighties and occasionally has to phone me to carry them to his vehicle.

This is good field knowledge thank you. Ply is a quick fix but I can't imagine it would give me much satisfaction.

Teak boxes is a real labour of love!

 

[Loxley]

I looked into using larch but internet searches came back saying it makes for a very heavy hive.

As you probably know oak and sweet chestnut are quite expensive here vs the US (and relative to cedar given its suitability) so might be worth checking US forums for answers on those if you have a supply

Supers generally go on in the summer so should face less wet weather so do open up the options of using other woods for them

Yea I wasn't sure about larch, it can be pretty sappy and the knots can fall out when it dries.

My day job is a timber frame carpenter so I have always got offcuts of oak, Dougie, larch knocking about (as well as a good supply of ply!) Occasionally I get sweet chestnut bit it's usually in the round. Also the majority of my timber is green so will require a bit of planning to utilise!

good point about the supers!

 

[Loxley]

When I first started I made hives from any wood that I had pallets,plywood and other bits and pieces even have a hive stand made from an old table base fancy legs as well.The biggest problem is the weight ,cedar is a lot lighter also it doesn't need treating.I find the old hives that I have made of pine tend to absorb a lot of moisture during the winter months. To keep the costs down its worth giving anything a try,I even made some bait hives out of cardboard boxes last year just as an experement it surprised me they lasted all the way through the year.

Sounds like exactly the road I'm heading down!

 

[Loxley]

The density of the wood and the thickness you choose matters. If you are building a "normal" hive cedar is THE wood to use for durability, lightness in use etc. I build my long hives from Larch, works really well, of course moving a long hive involves two people.

Cool, how thick are the board's you use? Any problems with knots dropping out? I often use larch weatherboarding at work and have had knots fall out of it but it tends to be pretty thin stock and green timber not seasoned.

 

[Murox]

Cool, how thick are the board's you use? Any problems with knots dropping out? I often use larch weatherboarding at work and have had knots fall out of it but it tends to be pretty thin stock and green timber not seasoned.

boards are cut 25mm. I air dry them under cover for a year if I can before use.

 

[Loxley]

boards are cut 25mm. I air dry them under cover for a year if I can before use.

Thanks, I'll put some by in my timber store next time I get any and give it a go!

 

[Herbalist]

Hi,

Having just read the thread on cedar hives and the relative merits I was wondering what other timbers people have experience of making Hives from.

I am a carpenter by trade and keen to make my own. Obviously they are predominantly made from Western red cedar or pine but I'm sure there are other timbers that could be used.

Anyone done any experimenting with this?

Thanks,

Rob

I have made a couple of hives from oak. They looked beautiful - but were heavy as Hell. I have tried plywood but it was very difficult to stop it delaminating after a year or so - and it was prone to mould. I now only use plywood for the roofs. Western Red Cedar is very expensive but I have found that ordinary pine, treated with wood sealer and finished with Danish oil is fine for internals. Externally I also add a couple of coats of external yacht varnish. The roof I finish with gutter paint. It stands up to uV light and water well.
I think the reason that Western Red Cedar lasts is that it is resistant to rot and mould because it is acidic. I am currently experimenting with acidification of the pine that I am using by painting it with vinegar and letting it dry before sealing the pine with wood-sealer and Danish oil.

 

[F.F.Stung]

When I first started I made hives from any wood that I had pallets,plywood and other bits and pieces even have a hive stand made from an old table base fancy legs as well.The biggest problem is the weight ,cedar is a lot lighter also it doesn't need treating.I find the old hives that I have made of pine tend to absorb a lot of moisture during the winter months. To keep the costs down its worth giving anything a try,I even made some bait hives out of cardboard boxes last year just as an experement it surprised me they lasted all the way through the year.

Did you get swarms in the cardboard bait hives?

 

[Herbalist]

What's Oprah?

An American show where treason is displayed for entertainment purposes.

 

[Ian123]

Did you get swarms in the cardboard bait hives.

https://bee-equipment.co.uk/product...MI5YeIjZ647wIVDLbtCh15fAX2EAQYASABEgJXLvD_BwE...............They’ve been around in the US for years. Bees are after a cavity it need be no more complicated than that.

 

[Show me the honey]

I am carpenter to I’ve used a few different types and as you are in the trade I doubt the weight of the box will bother you too much if you are getting it free. Pine is the easiest and free I’ve biscuit jointed bits together or when very lazy glued and screw. Iv painted pine box that went 3 years without another coat I could bin it if i wanted but got plenty of paint on site! Still in fine order. Roofs make out of ply all day long. Celotex for the roofs. Cls for underfloor entrances (plans on here) but frames not worth the time. When you make all your own kit you can make a nice profit I have found.

oak I think even treated would have the tendency to twist and wrap

 

[Goran]

At my place 99% of boxes are made of spruce/fir.. Also as they say is important where it grows. If in some rocky, ground scarce area - better.. thicker as they claim. For the floors also the same, but if want some longer life they made the floors ( especially ones with pollen catchers) of sweet chestnut. Frames are all lime tree. I tried once plywood as bottom board ( board ply and sides spruce), and then dipped into paraffin - I must say they were really durable, even now have some of them. For the roofs You can find everything.. I liked the most when we made board of ply and sides of real wood.. Covered with discarded printed aluminum foil ( when You rest in pause You can read some articles on the roof as well ).

 

[philipm]

Did you get swarms in the cardboard bait hives?

Only one swarm which was moved into a wooden hive.

 

[philipm]

I always use all my sawdust/wood shavings as bedding for the chickens ,I didn't realise until I was looking for bedding for the chicks that are hatching that Cedar sawdust isn't good as it causes breathing problems.

 

[Antipodes]

Cedar needs no protection for it's entire life.

Pine and so on must be treated: in Australia and the US they dip boxes in hot liquid paraffin; painting is pointless as it prevents the wood breathing and the paint blisters. Some use ply - I have a few boxes from somewhere that are still going - but it's heavy, absorbs moisture if not sealed and usually has a short life.

The lighter the wood the better, and cedar is not only the lightest but has the best thermal efficiency of timber, and thermal efficiency is what bees would choose and what allows the colony to work most effectively.

Check out thermodynamist Derek Mitchell's work: here are samples: According to universally accepted standards, soft pine offers an R-value of about 1.12 per inch. [4] Therefore, the ¾ inch pine boxes we typically use provide an R-value of about 0.84. Conversely, a colony surrounded by 5 inches of wood in a natural softwood tree benefits from an R-value of about 5.6 or about six times the insulation quality of a typical bee box and that’s just the outside walls.

Here's another: Depending on relative water content of the enclosure material, the difference in heat transfer may be as large as a factor of 4 to 7 times for wooden hives and 1.5 to 5 times for full-size expanded polystyrene hives (Fig. 2, Table 2) compared to tree enclosures.

As you're unlikely to want to saw up 150mm insulation boards to make your hives, your best bet is a Welsh sawmill cutting up Welsh cedar.

I wonder if there is any published test results on the difference in R value of parrafin or beeswax dipped pine compared to untreated?

 

[Sayle]

I wonder if there is any published test results on the difference in R value of parrafin or beeswax dipped pine compared to untreated?

This is purely speculative on my part, but I struggle to believe there would be any real difference. Impregnating the wood with wax (which repels water) won't actually add much weight. Sure, it's a great store of heat (which is why we use it for candles), but there's so little of it that I can't imagine it would be meaningful. Enough wax to make a difference would have the pine slipping out from your hands, methinks!

 

[ericbeaumont]

This is purely speculative on my part, but I struggle to believe there would be any real difference.

My guesstimate: moisture expelled and replaced by paraffin or wax would also fill air voids in the wood fibre. If so, thermal insulation would be reduced as heat would pass through the wax faster than through air.