Thinking of getting a warre

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Using cheese wire to separate the comb from the sides seems like an odd way of doing it. You'd have to thread the wire from top to bottom, while the box lies on its side. It's far easier to de-attach the comb using a skep knife (i.e. a short knife attached at a right angle to a long rod).

google it, (I can't be bothered ) there is a tool specific to the job, metal frame with wire tensioned on it designed for separating the comb from the side

 

[Tom Bick]

Abbe Warre mentions inspections of the hive regularly throughout his book. He also advocates using lots of smoke (in fact, he suggests that beekeepers carry out their duties in pairs, with one person being in charge of the smoker).

Abbe Warre specifically advises against using the cheese wire method to separate boxes (he believed that there is a real risk of injuring the queen). His book states that the bees will not attach the comb from different boxes to each other if the top-bars are correctly spaced.

It is important to separate fact from myth.

Not a great fan of the Warre hive but understand Abbe Warre was a commercial beekeeper and not a bad one by all accounts. Don't know if he ever ran the hive commercially or if it was just a creation and experiment.

I suspect whats happened is the "natural beekeepers" got hold of the hive and as these things go two sides build up and neither will ever meet.

 

[bpmurray]

google it, (I can't be bothered ) there is a tool specific to the job, metal frame with wire tensioned on it designed for separating the comb from the side

Ah - that's the cheesewire to separate boxes - that's not supposed to be a good idea. I had hoped that the use of top bars would keep each layer of comb separate from the next.

 

[ugcheleuce]

google it, (I can't be bothered ) there is a tool specific to the job, metal frame with wire tensioned on it designed for separating the comb from the side

Ah - that's the cheesewire to separate boxes - that's not supposed to be a good idea. I had hoped that the use of top bars would keep each layer of comb separate from the next.

No, Jenkins is referring to separating the comb from the sides of the hive (if I understand correctly), not separating the boxes from each other.

I can see in my mind's eye the tool he mentions, but I could not find it googling. As far as I can tell, the tool must have been a great invention by someone who was unaware of the existence of a skep knife.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No, Jenkins is referring to separating the comb from the sides of the hive (if I understand correctly), not separating the boxes from each other.

I can see in my mind's eye the tool he mentions, but I could not find it googling. As far as I can tell, the tool must have been a great invention by someone who was unaware of the existence of a skep knife.

probably (to your last) i saw it only the lat week, may have been on fleabay, don't remember I can't find it meself now although there is a mention of the tool on one of the warre weirdo sites. Anyway, Frank, the RBI uses it (has to really) when he inspects warres

 

[pargyle]

Ah - that's the cheesewire to separate boxes - that's not supposed to be a good idea. I had hoped that the use of top bars would keep each layer of comb separate from the next.

Unfortunately, the bees do tend to build the comb right down and attach it to the top of the top bars in the next box down ... indeed, occasionally they will start building comb upwards from the top bars in a box added at the bottom before the box above it is full drawn.

The cheese wire is essential to ensure that any comb bridging between boxes is cut free - otherwise, you end with an unholy mess when you try and take the top box off to harvest the honey.

The idea is that it is a continuous process, take a box from the top, add a new one in at the bottom. The ideal configuration is not more than 5 boxes in a stack (they are quite shallow boxes) but some Warre afficionados seem to think it's a competition to see how tall you can get the stack.

Taking the top box at the point where the comb is all capped is the ideal - by then there should be no brood in it as the brood should be two or three boxes below the honey stores. Remove the roof and the Warre quilt, Cheese wire between top box and next one down. lean the box up at 45 degrees, look in to the bottom of the top box, see if the comb is fully capped - if so take the box off. Insert the 'lifter' (which you have made because I don't think you can buy one) into the stack (the boxes have bars at the sides so that you can insert the forks of the 'lifter' in to the stack, wind up the lifter with the stack suspended on the forks, insert new box at bottom of stack, wind lifter down. Replace quilt and roof and run off with your box of honey before the bees realise you have nicked it ... and all this fully suited and booted.

You can see why inspections of the brood area are really difficult and most Warre beekeepers don't bother as either tipping the stack or dismantling the stack are both problematical.

And let's not bother with the business of getting the honey out of the comb.

Try it ... then build a Long deep hive ... with frames - much more pleasurable experience. Or buy a couple of Paynes Poly Hives ..

 

[Finman]

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Cutting combs with cheese wire or what ever special tool

1# When you cut combs, there are always bees too, and you break bees. Bees send their alarm scent on air, poison, and colony becomes mad. Often it does not mind about smoke when the colony rushes here and there.

2# When you cut combs, honey drills. It calls robber bees on site, and you are in real trouble. (if you get experience ever take honey from hive)

3# You must leave 20 kg honey into the hive for winter. How can you do it is your yield is 10 kg.

Can you feed the hive with sugar and bees draw new combs for syrup before winter or what?

 

[Finman]

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If hobby beekeepers yield is 15 kg/hive, how can you get those hive towers what you see in internet

Then you loose half of you yield in comb building. It depends on pastures, how much the hive can get honey and how many boxes it can draw in summer.

As you say, yield comes in spring from rape. Then nothing and the hive makes 2 swarms. Foragers has gone and you cannot get honey any more what you cut from hive.

But thanks to heaven, the picture lies. Make a stand that hive looks taller.

I have in my hives 6-9 langstroth boxes during yield time. What does it mean compared with 3-4 warre box.

If you are lucky, you get a 5 kg swarm with marked queen. Swarm draws that 3-box hive full in one week, then queen lays it full, and the hive must swarm because it has no space for new emerged bees.

 

[Finman]

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Warre hive size

The box about 30 x 30 x20 cm = 18 litres .......... compared to

National: 35 litres..........1.9

WBC: 33 litres ...............1.8

Langstroth: 42 litres ..... 2.3

Lang medium 28 litres..... 1.6


So: 4 warre boxes are about 2 national bee boxes.

My productive hives are 240-360 litres and
5-box warre is 90.

My most wintering hives are 80 litres.
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Impossible formula. No swarm control and hive does not have space to modern queen to lay.

The size of hive is like granpa's skep with one super.
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[Hivemaker.]

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The size of hive is like granpa's skep with one super.
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....and grandpas skep would be a lot easier to use.

 

[ugcheleuce]

.Warre box dimensions
About 30 x 30 x20 cm = 18 litres .......... compared to...
So: 4 warre boxes are about 2 national bee boxes.

Congratulations. Through careful observation and calculation, you have figured out (on your own) what is also written in Abbe Warre's book: these boxes are really "half-boxes".

Originally, Mr Warre's hive used boxes of 40 cm tall (so 1 Warre is more or less 1 National). But then they discovered that if you make the top box 20 cm instead of 40 cm, you're more likely to get it full of honey alone (with no brood in the honey box) at the end of summer. Since Mr Warre preferred a one-size box system, he did the logical thing: cut all 40 cm boxes down to 20 cm.

 

[Finman]

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Here we go

I you buy 4 frame poly nucs, they are about size of warre hive.
4 polynucs, and you have normal warre size hive.

Leave the frames off and there you have it. Put swarm in.



.

 

[Finman]

congratulations. Through careful observation and calculation, you have figured out (on your own)

?????????????????????????????????????????????????


.

Originally, Mr Warre's hive used boxes of 40 cm tall (so 1 Warre is more or less 1 National). But then they discovered that if you make the top box 20 cm instead of 40 cm, you're more likely to get it full of honey alone (with no brood in the honey box) at the end of summer. Since Mr Warre preferred a one-size box system, he did the logical thing: cut all 40 cm boxes down to 20 cm.

And that makes sense not at all.

Mr Langstroth took size of box from champagne bottle box.

And further more!

During my beekeeping years bee colony size have become 3 fold. Thanks to queen breeding

That is why you cannot keep bees in old fashion hives.

 

[ugcheleuce]

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I you buy 4 frame poly nucs, they are about size of warre hive.

What matters in a Warre system is not the area of comb per box, but the horizontal surface area of the box (and to some extend the shape of the box, i.e. as close to square as possible). If you want to use Langstroths for a Warre-style system, it may be best to use 7-frame or 8-frame boxes.

Warre: 0.29 m x 0.29 m = 0.0841 m2

5-frame Lang: 0.44 m x 0.19 m = same horizontal surface area as Warre... but still rather narrow

 

[Finman]

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Working safe dimensions

50 years ago many burdens what people carried were 50 kg.

Nowadays for working health those loads are 20-25 kg.

Nowadays even young people have much back pain. The basic is in weak back and belly side muscles. Thanks to sitting works.

Perhaps full langstroth box about 50 kg was proper to normal working loads.

Perhaps in Britain they realized that beekeepers are mostly older people or become older and the size of boxes are smaller.

In eastern Europe heavy hives are good, because they are difficult to steal.

When I was young, many beekeepers said that they must abandon beekeeping because boxes were too heavy. And they thought that they cold become professional.

In Finland women prefer medium size boxes in a whole hive, and many professionals do the same.
.

 

[Finman]

= 0.0841 m2

Try to be more practical = 0.1 m2
but that number tells me nothing.

A rule: if you use 2 decimals at basic numbers, you should use 2 decimals in answer too.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Mr Langstroth took size of box from champagne bottle box.

Yes, it's interesting to learn what the history behind the dimensions of our hives are.

Mr Warre originally did not intend to design his "own" hive. He wanted to use an existing size that other beekeepers also used. He investigated a number of designs that were known at his time (including the Dadant), and he eventually chose the "Congrès" hive.

There were two types of Congrès hives, namely tall (40 cm tall, 30 cm wide) and wide (30 cm tall, 40 cm wide). Mr Warre chose the tall one, because he felt that 30 cm x 30 cm are the ideal horizontal dimensions of a nest.

Then, some years later, he cut the 40 cm box in half: 20 cm, for practical purposes (i.e. less risk of brood in honey boxes).

During my beekeeping years bee colony size have become 3 fold. Thanks to queen breeding. That is why you cannot keep bees in old fashion hives.

That is a very good point, and one that should be kept in mind when discussing Warre hives: Mr Warre did not have such excellent queens as we do, so naturally he would have preferred a smaller box.

I'm sure that if Mr Warre had lived today, his "People's Hive" would have been basically a Rose hive.

 

[Finman]

I'm sure that if Mr Warre had lived today, his "People's Hive" would have been basically a Rose hive.

Rose hive no excluder and all frames same size. Nothing strange in it.

I have nursed hives 50 y without excluders. I have 3 langstroth brood boxes in my hives, So queens do not lay into supers, and bees do not store pollen in honey combs. Normally lowest box is full of pollen and bees rear winter bees with that store. Before feeding Italian colonies have used all pollen stores off.

Medium frames are handy. I can spin them fast in extractor. Full medium boxes are nice to handle.

First of all, poly boxes are light to handle in migrative beekeeping. I lift my hives alone when I move hives on to carry and off.
.
.

 

[bpmurray]

I have 3 langstroth brood boxes in my hives, So queens do not lay into supers, and bees do not store pollen in honey combs. Normally lowest box is full of pollen and bees rear winter bees with that store. Before feeding Italian colonies have used all pollen stores off.

I'm curious - how are your hives configured? Langstroth with 3 brood boxes and a mountain of supers on top? That sounds like an enormous hive to me!

 

[drex]

Why all this hive bashing? I inherited my ware from my friend when he died. He loved it. As I posted earlier it is my least favourite ( I mainly run nationals but also KTBH).
It involves different management, and that has taught me a lot about bees behaviour and beekeeping. It is possible to do a full inspection - the SBI's have to ( but none of them I have spoken with like them) . I was glad I had a few years experience before getting it. It is a bit of fun and that is a large part of why I keep bees.