thick vs thin syrup - evidence for use?

[Jules59]

Is there any evidence to support the use of thick vs thin syrup ?
I know we are taught thin in spring and thick for winter feed but is there any evidence to say it actually makes a difference which form of syrup is used ?

 

[Antipodes]

Is there any evidence to support the use of thick vs thin syrup ?
I know we are taught thin in spring and thick for winter feed but is there any evidence to say it actually makes a difference which form of syrup is used ?

Bob Binnie in the US has done some work on it... Two videos.

He reckons thinner than 1:1 makes a difference too.



Have a look at Part 2 of the video as well.

 

[Ian123]

Not sure what you want as evidence…..if!! you need to feed at those times those ratios are good. In autumn your trying to add weight/stores so no point adding extra water for bees to process or evaporate. If you’re feeding other times it’s maybe more a stimulant or helping nucs in periods of bad weather. Thin syrup costs less it’s more likely to be used as fuel and is probably more similar in ratio to nectar. Simply put no need for the thick stuff, don’t really think it’s any more complicated than that! And frankly they will take any ratio any time.

 

[Jules59]

Thanks both - I'll have a look at those videos above in the cold light of day.
My question arises because Ive been asked simply why are these concentrations used and would other mixtures be better.
It seems to me that 1:1 syrup (originally 1lb of sugar with a pint of water) was a convenient but purely arbitrary mixture, and thick was simply doubling the concentration.
Yes thin syrup is nearer to nectar than thick but its still way off; 80% vs 55% by weight I believe

 

[BaconWizard]

Yes thin syrup is nearer to nectar than thick but its still way off; 80% vs 55% by weight I believe

True, but the studies that Bob Binnie cites stopped at 1:1.3 with every reason to believe that continuing to get thinner would continue to get better. Up till what point is unknown. Bob Binnie himself uses 1:1.4 I believe for building-up the colony vs the usual 2:1 for adding weight to stores.

Nevertheless, if they are lacking nectar then any concentration will do either job; they'll adapt. For me, the bigger takeaway is the production of hydrogen peroxide in the hive and the general boost to colony health.

 

[Ian123]

He is generally saying what many of us are practicing but obviously adding some more meat to the bones.
I’ll be delighted to show this to those that consider honey BETTER for the bees though

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I use invert all the time nowadays, so regardless of the time of year they get it thicker than 2:1 they draw comb just as quickly on it as they used to on 1:1

 

[pargyle]

He is generally saying what many of us are practicing but obviously adding some more meat to the bones.
I’ll be delighted to show this to those that consider honey BETTER for the bees though

But bees are opportunists and will always take the economic route ... They have survived on honey for millenia - and we know that honey contains more complex sugars and enzymes than plain sugar syrup. If you are putting forward a proposition that SUGAR is better for the bees than honey when they are overwintering - I'm not sure that many beekeepers would agree with that - I certainly would not. Any organism can survive on an artificial diet - whether this is actually good for them is another matter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you are putting forward a proposition that SUGAR is better for the bees than honey when they are overwintering - I'm not sure that many beekeepers would agree with that - I certainly would not.

you may not - but I very much doubt you are in the majority, it's just a belief of a few of a certain mindset

 

[Jules59]

Interesting views on the subject being shared.
From a practical point of view it would be easier for me to use thick all the time as I can then use less volume.
I subsequently found this thread and work by Randy Oliver

Sugar syrup strength and it's influence on wax production

I've mostly read that feeding bees "thin" syrup generally promotes wax production and that "thick" syrup or more solid forms of sugar tend to be used as stores. I've long doubted this to be such a straightforward division as generally described because it conflicts with my other readings, that...

beekeepingforum.co.uk

Research undertaken 50+ years, in many fields , would not be considered rigorous enough now (eg small sample sizes and inherent bias) so it is good to challenge perceived wisdom with simply questions.

 

[pargyle]

you may not - but I very much doubt you are in the majority, it's just a belief of a few of a certain mindset

I seem to recall one of your posts, not that long ago, where you said that you hardly had to feed any of your colonies last year going into winter ... which would suggest that you, too, believe that bees overwinter well on their own resources. I can't be bothered to go and look for the post but I'm sure it's there. Like you, if my bees need feeding, I feed them invert and I don't think it does them any harm but stating that sugar syrup is BETTER for them than their own honey ... dubious and I'm surprised you would put your name to it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I seem to recall one of your posts, not that long ago, where you said that you hardly had to feed any of your colonies last year going into winter ...

You recall wrong then, What I've said is I did not need any supplementary feeding in the spring. I fed each of my colonies with at least 12 kilos of invert (which they do every year) I stated that on the forum, yes, they got plenty from the ivy but very few of my colonies didn't take a whole can down - some took more.
.

 

[BaconWizard]

But bees are opportunists and will always take the economic route ... They have survived on honey for millenia - and we know that honey contains more complex sugars and enzymes than plain sugar syrup. If you are putting forward a proposition that SUGAR is better for the bees than honey when they are overwintering - I'm not sure that many beekeepers would agree with that - I certainly would not. Any organism can survive on an artificial diet - whether this is actually good for them is another matter.

Another case of remembering that beekeeping is highly contextual (to location in particular)

I think some people take-away the information that sugar is better than honey for overwintering. This is true, according to all research and much experience IF you live somewhere such as Canada where the bees won't get even a single cleansing flight for perhaps 6 months straight, and/or where such flights are a rare opportunity and the available autumn nectar contain a lot of ash content. Not something we generally need to worry about in the UK I don't think.

 

[pargyle]

You recall wrong then, What I've said is I did not need any supplementary feeding in the spring. I fed each of my colonies with at least 12 kilos of invert (which they do every year) I stated that on the forum, yes, they got plenty from the ivy but very few of my colonies didn't take a whole can down - some took more.
I'll leave it here.
I've no interest in getting embroiled in this argument as we al know of your strong views (whether right or wrong) on this subject as we've seen it time and time again

Ahhh ... the years fly by and time gets condensed as I get older ... "Nothing wrong with leaving them a load of honey and letting them be Personally I'll be taking most (not all) of the honey off and topping up with invert syrup - depends what you want from your beekeeping really."

I totally agree with you.

 

[Ian123]

I don’t think in my post above I said said syrup was better than honey rather some claiming honey was better than syrup!, although I’ve said before that in some instances syrup certainly is and the gentleman in the video states the same.
Simple fact is they are both sugars, most of the extra goodies in honey are added by the bees and you’d assume they do the same with syrup?

 

[pargyle]

I don’t think in my post above I said said syrup was better than honey rather some claiming honey was better than syrup!, although I’ve said before that in some instances syrup certainly is and the gentleman in the video states the same.
Simple fact is they are both sugars, most of the extra goodies in honey are added by the bees and you’d assume they do the same with syrup?

Well I don't know is the answer but honey comes from nectar and nectar is a very complex substance. Syrup from refined sugar and even invertbee are simple sugars and cannot hope to replicate nectar. I feed my bees with top ups of invert in the autumn. I'm not averse to feeding bees if they need it but running 14 x 12s and allowing them to keep anything in.the brood box does mean that they don't need much topping up and some years (like last year) hardly anything. I would not leave a super of honey on just in case any more than I would put a load of fondant on top of a full brood box just in case. I rather think that what I do... be it with sugar syrup or invert is good beekeeping practice. I know you didn't say sugar was better than honey...although, in my opinion, honey that the colony has stored is better than sugar fed by the beekeeper. But as always... each to their own - I'm not seeking anyone to follow what i do...I'm not a proper beekeeper and I never insist, like some, that my way is the right and only way.