The Greatest Generation - Winter bees

[user 6228]

Have any of you read this article in ABJ Jan 2020 it talks about the role of the winter cluster and insulation I'd be interested in you comments on it

 

[user 20297]

Have any of you read this article in ABJ Jan 2020 it talks about the role of the winter cluster and insulation I'd be interested in you comments on it

The overall message of the article is not controversial, but it's shame that in order to put dramatic emphasis on their own rhetoric the author seeks to destroy the ethos of a modern approach that is upheld by science, commonsense and the writer's own logic. They point out that bees will need additional protection in extreme emperatures and that just below 10c is the optimum temperature at which the the winter cluster is most efficiently maintained....both of those being good examples that undermine their own, opening argument that "winter survival depends very little on what we did to the structure itself"

 

[Murox]

Seems perfectly logical and convincing, supported with cogent argument and a significant body of reference materials.
I thought it noteworthy that the author made a point of reminding us all that in the “pre-varroa version of the book the Hive and the Honey Bee (1975), Furgula clearly stated problems associated with winter mortality centred on four fundamental principles of beekeeping, that haven’t changed.

 

[user 6228]

So nobody spotted the principle of conservation of energy being thrown out the window? Newtons law of cooling being binned?

 

[Murox]

Obviously not. Of course by focusing on the story and the public presentation, and you can direct attention where you want it.

 

[user 6228]

Obviously not. Of course by focusing on the story and the public presentation, and you can direct attention where you want it.

Essentially say something boldly with conviction and they will follow... alas all too true.
I thought the caption on the thermal image of a hive was especially bold and convicting

 

[Murox]

Essentially say something boldly with conviction and they will follow... alas all too true.
I thought the caption on the thermal image of a hive was especially bold and convicting

I had not seen any pictures, I only read a text version. Seemed like a very big box for a small cluster. I like your phrase "bold and convicting!!"

 

[user 6228]

'How do bees survive extreme cold if not in insulated hives? By acting like penguins! Emperor penguins in Antarctica don’t try to heat the entire frozen continent, they heat themselves by forming a tight
cluster, with the outer individuals forming an insulating layer for the penguins on the inside. Honey bees act similarly; bees do not heat the hive — they heat themselves in a cluster. It would be super-inefficient for penguins to heat an iceberg, or for bees to heat a hive. Instead, the bees (and penguins) act as a unified superorganism, creating a warm insulating layer around their whole “body.” '

I wonder what she exactly means by "heat". The biologists tend to use words for efficiency, energy and temperature with some confusion changing the meaning as they go. e.g. "Emperor penguins in Antarctica don’t try to heat the entire frozen continent" . They actually transfer heat into the entire universe. That's if you measure heat in joules. The penguins may not intend to dissipate energy into the universe but they do, and while the penguin is close to equilibrium, close to all of the thermal energy it generates end up in the environment. "It would be super-inefficient for penguins to heat an iceberg" I hope she means ineffectual in raising its temperature.
"bees do not heat the hive — they heat themselves in a cluster " might mean one moment "bees do not significantly raise the temperature of the hive, they only signifcantly raise the temperature of the cluster" ( true) and then later when justifying not insulating hives by swapping it for a meaning that is really , "bees do not transfer energy into the hive, they only transfer energy into the cluster"(false).

The meaning "bees do not significantly raise the temperature of the hive, they only significantly raise the temperature of the cluster" actually tells us important information. That is that the hive has a low thermal resistance compared to the cluster and is ineffectual at creating a temperature difference. i.e. the lack of a large temperature difference is a property of the hive not the behaviour of the bees. It also hints that substantial changes in the thermal resistance of the hive are needed in order to be significant.

There is amplfied in the anecdote of the mesh hives i where the identical performance of bees in mesh hives and thin wood is taken to mean that increasing hive thermal resistance is irrelevant. When it actually proves a mesh hives thermal resistance is as significant as a thin wooden hive. i.e. a wooden is hive has poor thermal resistance for the application.


p.s. insulation is used here to mean the addition of significantly lower thermal conductivity material, not changes in thermal resistance due to reductions in area.

 

[SWEET]

Kept bees in a travel correx box over winter a few years back, did fine.

 

[Jules59]

Maintaining the 4 basic principles seems sage advice with the aim to have good amount of healthy winter bees before winter sets in.

 

[user 6228]

Maintaining the 4 basic principles seems sage advice with the aim to have good amount of healthy winter bees before winter sets in.

if the thrust of the argument was that all four principles counted and you needed a balance between them it would be fine , but most of the article is devoted to saying you can ignore principle 2 by using dubious arguments.

 

[blackcloud]

Kept bees in a travel correx box over winter a few years back, did fine.

Had to do a split last year and was stuck for kit.They went in a correx that I inadvertently left in the sun. Within a few hours they'd F.O.ed

 

[Jules59]

if the thrust of the argument was that all four principles counted and you needed a balance between them it would be fine , but most of the article is devoted to saying you can ignore principle 2 by using dubious arguments.

I tend to think that winter survival is more determined by the weakest of the 4, whichever that happens to be at the time.