Swarm cells but can't find the Queen

[aberreef]

I just inspected my oldest National hive and found a few swarm cells (nice fat larvae in 2 of them). It is on a single BB with 3 supers, 2 fully drawn and they are working on the 3rd.

I'd taken an extra brood box and QE with the intention of doing a demarree on the hive but I can't find the queen in this hive. I've not seen her for almost a month now although she is still laying well with plenty of brood in all stages from egg to emerging.

I went through the hive twice, even shaking the bees gently off each frame on the second pass but still no sign of her

Where do I go from here? I don't really want to split the hive and not too keen on going double BB if I can help it so any advice would be most welcome

Incidentally, there was a HUGE sealed QC in my new national hive (they are only on 6 frames in this hive) which I begrudgingly destroyed. It's a shame I couldn't use it atm but such is life I suppose. Found the other 2 Qeens on problem too

 

[freethorpe bees]

Can you get someone to help you? I could not have done my as alone, I found it easier to lift each frame, I look on one side and the other person look on the other side. Thats the way We found her and up until then I hadn't seen her this year!

Good luck - FB

 

[MuswellMetro]

Incidentally, there was a HUGE sealed QC in my new national hive (they are only on 6 frames in this hive) which I begrudgingly destroyed. It's a shame I couldn't use it atm but such is life I suppose. Found the other 2 Qeens on problem too

well are you sure it is not a supersedure cell, one large cell, often Nuc supercede if the queen was poorly mated or damaged

i would have let them change the queen

 

[Silly Bee]

You have Qcells so unless you do something they will swarm, they seem determined to.

I'd take some brood and stores from the brood box, put them into another box, then put a q/e between that and the super, and let some house bees move up, then split and put the Queen cell and house bees in a nuc, and let her develope.

After that, you have a new queen, and do whatever you think best afterwards.

 

[Midland Beek]

Incidentally, there was a HUGE sealed QC in my new national hive (they are only on 6 frames in this hive) which I begrudgingly destroyed.

One queen cell is indicative of supersedure.

And a queen which is preparing to swarm might well have stopped laying. As such, she might be exactly where you are least expecting to find her, like under the bottom bar of one of the end frames in the box. Or she might be on the inside of the hive wall.

 

[aberreef]

Thanks for the replies so far. The weather here has changed drastically over the past week or so, from no rain in april to wind, rain and thunderstorms in may. The little tinkers have been stuck indoors for a few days

The queen in the new hive is an imported ?Buckfast?. The laying pattern seems pretty good in this hive, no empty spaces and little in the way of drones atm. I'll keep an eye on them over the next week and see what they get up to. The emerging bees are a totally different colour to the originals being much lighter yellow, very pretty indeed.

All three queens are laying well atm, each hive apart from the new one (much smaller) having several frames of eggs.

If I split the hive as per Silly Bees suggestion, I suppose it will at least narrow the search to the box with eggs and spread the bees out a little to make the search a bit easier.

I'm figuring I'll be ok until the weekend so will employ Mrs aberreef to check the other side of each frame with me. She can't hide forever

Any other suggestions would be well recieved

 

[tonybloke]

to A/S without finding the queen
you need 2 brood boxes, floor, and at least 1 queen excluder ( + crownboard and roof)

take 1 frame of brood in all stages from the parent colony (no Queen cells on this frame), place in new brood box with rest of frames all with foundation, on floor, on original stand.
shake/brush ALL the bees ( therefore including Queen) into this box.
add Queen excluder, then original brood box with all other frames, including 1-2 queen cells ( + one of foundation removed from other box), then possibly another Queen excluder and any supers, crown board, roof.

leave overnight, nurse bees will move up to cover the brood, leaving queen in lower box.
in morning, move top brood box to one side.

hope this helps?

 

[Finman]

One queen cell is indicative of supersedure.

.

Midland is right. If it is going to swarm, it would have 10-15 queen cells.

If you do not find the queen, look if you see
1) eggs
2) what age larvae.
3) eggs in queen cell cups or qeen milk

If the hive is queenless, bees are not satisfield qith one queencell.

If the hive has eggs, the queen is there.

If you have only capped brood, the queen has been away over a week.

 

[aberreef]

to A/S without finding the queen
you need 2 brood boxes, floor, and at least 1 queen excluder ( + crownboard and roof)

take 1 frame of brood in all stages from the parent colony (no Queen cells on this frame), place in new brood box with rest of frames all with foundation, on floor, on original stand.
shake/brush ALL the bees ( therefore including Queen) into this box.
add Queen excluder, then original brood box with all other frames, including 1-2 queen cells ( + one of foundation removed from other box), then possibly another Queen excluder and any supers, crown board, roof.

leave overnight, nurse bees will move up to cover the brood, leaving queen in lower box.
in morning, move top brood box to one side.

hope this helps?

Fantastic advice, thanks. If I can't find her this weekend I'll do as you describe

Midland is right. If it is going to swarm, it would have 10-15 queen cells.

If you do not find the queen, look if you see
1) eggs
2) what age larvae.
3) eggs in queen cell cups or qeen milk

If the hive is queenless, bees are not satisfield qith one queencell.

If the hive has eggs, the queen is there.

If you have only capped brood, the queen has been away over a week.

Thanks Finman. It would appear they are seeing something with teh new queen that I'm not. Would the move to my field have caused them enough upset to try superseding the queen? I'll monitor them closely.

I think I may set up some mini nucs to raise a few queens whilst I'm performing swarm control so I've got some as spares should the need arise.

 

[Finman]

the move to my field have caused them enough upset to try superseding the queen? .

They hardly are upset that way, but when you move the hive the frames may wave in the box and crush the fat queen. It had happened to sometimes to me. That is why frames must locked before moving.

In pic frames are tightened with beewax.

 

[Poly Hive]

Two ideas for consideration.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=10423&highlight=queen+finding

And check this out, although this is NOT I repeat NOT to be attempted with any animals or children or neighbours for a few hundred yards.

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/taranovswm.html

PH

 

[aberreef]

Two ideas for consideration.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=10423&highlight=queen+finding

And check this out, although this is NOT I repeat NOT to be attempted with any animals or children or neighbours for a few hundred yards.

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/taranovswm.html

PH

Thanks for the links I've been following the queen finding thread. As for the other method I think I'll need a little more convincing (bloody coward)

Finman

I made sure the frames were good and secure before moving but the drive home was 15-20 miles so a damaged queen could be a posability. Would I be right in thinking they will make another supersedure cell if they need too?

 

[VEG]

You have a pm

 

[aberreef]

Had another look for HM yesterday without using smoke but still no sign of her

Good news is that they haven't made any more QCs this week. The weather wasn't the best and the bees were a bit touchy so I didn't attempt a shook swarm or similar to get her into a new box. I did add a second brood box though. They haven't been flying much for the past few weeks because it's rained every day and generally been quite miserable. The brood box was quite congested despite the 3 supers on there so I'm hoping the extra room for HM to move about will delay any naughty ideas. Once the new BB is drawn and she's laying in there I'm hoping the bees will be a little more spread out making it easier to find her.

 

[Bad Boy Bee]

My last resort for finding shy mag's is to brush off all the bees on to a q excluder and smoke them down on to fresh comb. It's rough but as I say it's a last resort.

 

[aberreef]

Found her at last. She had moved up into the second brood box, I caught her laying an egg out the corner of my eye. She is very small compared to my other 2 queens. No wonder I was struggling to find her.

There was only one QC in the hive with plenty of royal jelly and I think a larvae(supersedure?) but I performed a demarree anyway. I intend making a nuc or two from the good frames in the old brood box and disposing of the old worn out ones.