"Survivor bees" found in Blenheim Forest

[Murox]

If you stopped imports right now and let nature run its course - you would then have an experiment in 'genetics, heritability and selection pressure' - my thoughts would be that in time the pure/near pure Amm populations in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland/Northumberland would expand their range and the local bees throughout the more heavily hybridised areas would become more Amm dominant. Constant importation is just ecocide not evolution.

I expect Galton might agree with you, afterall your suggestion is unscientific and racially biased.

 

[Bumbling Keeper]

I don't detest this forum - I don't agree with some of the opinions expressed on here and so will call those out. Otherwise it is just an echo chamber. Judging by the supportive private messages I have received from other forum members I would say my contributions are appreciated by many. You might not like them but that is the beauty of a forum. I would also point out that someone being labelled a 'troll' for advocating for the UK's native honey bee on a UK beekeeping forum is frankly ridiculous. I have actually seen this label being aimed at other contributors on here when they have expressed dissenting views on similar topics with the aim clearly of shutting them up. That is very sad.

My biggest concern is that new beekeepers come on here for information/education and they are given some very skewed view points when it comes to Amm. Openly derogatory a lot of the time but yet based on little actual hands on experience. Apart from "I had some black bees once, they stung me and they had chalk brood." Do you not recognise these same worn out tropes being repeated on here? The black bee population in the UK has been mixed up for so long that unless you go to extraordinary lengths your black bee is just a hybridised bee and bears little relation to how a pure Amm behaves or for that matter A.Carnica or Linguistica. Amm is however your native bee and you can't be blind to that or just wish it away.

I have to say that, as a total newbe to this forum I am really disappointed at the volume of off-topic and personal slagging off that takes place. It's totally offputting and I'm sure is keeping a lot of novice keepers from even asking questions. A few regulars here may actually know each other and their 'banter' may be otherwise good natured, but it doesn't read like that to the uninitiated. It reads as unmasked agression.
Posting an alternative view or additional information on a topic is not 'trolling' or belittling. But responding to someone's view with a slag-off retort about that person's outlook, background, previously discussed beliefs or ethics is not debate. The whole tone of some of these discussions is unnecessarily confrontational.
In my limited experiences on other forums and in actual meetings at shows and with the home association I have found fellow beekeepers to be really generous with sharing experiences and accepting that there are many, many ways to skin a beehive. Most of us (I would say 'ALL') are still learning. Climatic conditions are in flux. There are new disease threats in the wind. The experts are trialling all sorts of approaches to management of everything. Our scientific knowledge has advanced at startling speed in recent decades and even the last few years - and even with those advances of understanding the scientists will rarely give an absolute opinion; they know too much of how much there is still to understand.
I signed up on someone's recommendation. Upon signing up I was immediately 'invited' to pay a subscription. I'm afraid that the general tone of this forum is leading me to the conclusion that I won't be renewing that subscription next year - and I'm sorry I took out the year's option rather than the monthly one.

 

[Swarm]

I have to say that, as a total newbe to this forum I am really disappointed at the volume of off-topic and personal slagging off that takes place. It's totally offputting and I'm sure is keeping a lot of novice keepers from even asking questions. A few regulars here may actually know each other and their 'banter' may be otherwise good natured, but it doesn't read like that to the uninitiated. It reads as unmasked agression.
Posting an alternative view or additional information on a topic is not 'trolling' or belittling. But responding to someone's view with a slag-off retort about that person's outlook, background, previously discussed beliefs or ethics is not debate. The whole tone of some of these discussions is unnecessarily confrontational.
In my limited experiences on other forums and in actual meetings at shows and with the home association I have found fellow beekeepers to be really generous with sharing experiences and accepting that there are many, many ways to skin a beehive. Most of us (I would say 'ALL') are still learning. Climatic conditions are in flux. There are new disease threats in the wind. The experts are trialling all sorts of approaches to management of everything. Our scientific knowledge has advanced at startling speed in recent decades and even the last few years - and even with those advances of understanding the scientists will rarely give an absolute opinion; they know too much of how much there is still to understand.
I signed up on someone's recommendation. Upon signing up I was immediately 'invited' to pay a subscription. I'm afraid that the general tone of this forum is leading me to the conclusion that I won't be renewing that subscription next year - and I'm sorry I took out the year's option rather than the monthly one.

Please stick around and give the place a chance.

 

[Bumbling Keeper]

I have to say that, as a total newbe to this forum I am really disappointed at the volume of off-topic and personal slagging off that takes place. It's totally offputting and I'm sure is keeping a lot of novice keepers from even asking questions. A few regulars here may actually know each other and their 'banter' may be otherwise good natured, but it doesn't read like that to the uninitiated. It reads as unmasked agression.
Posting an alternative view or additional information on a topic is not 'trolling' or belittling. But responding to someone's view with a slag-off retort about that person's outlook, background, previously discussed beliefs or ethics is not debate. The whole tone of some of these discussions is unnecessarily confrontational.
In my limited experiences on other forums and in actual meetings at shows and with the home association I have found fellow beekeepers to be really generous with sharing experiences and accepting that there are many, many ways to skin a beehive. Most of us (I would say 'ALL') are still learning. Climatic conditions are in flux. There are new disease threats in the wind. The experts are trialling all sorts of approaches to management of everything. Our scientific knowledge has advanced at startling speed in recent decades and even the last few years - and even with those advances of understanding the scientists will rarely give an absolute opinion; they know too much of how much there is still to understand.
I signed up on someone's recommendation. Upon signing up I was immediately 'invited' to pay a subscription. I'm afraid that the general tone of this forum is leading me to the conclusion that I won't be renewing that subscription next year - and I'm sorry I took out the year's option rather than the monthly one.

I expect Galton might agree with you, afterall your suggestion is unscientific and racially biased.

Case in point. Was that snide finish remotely necessary? How did it move discussion forward?

 

[Bumbling Keeper]

I expect Galton might agree with you, afterall your suggestion is unscientific and racially biased.

With regard to import - this is how we've managed to spread most of the most damaging bioaflictions from other continents around the planet in the last century (talking about trees and plants as well as bees, farm animals, etc). NZ has incredibly strict biosecurity, with good reason.
After the outbreak of 'Isle of Wight Disease' here in Britain, we imported from the continent to rebuild stocks. It could be argued that what should have taken place was an intensive programme of queen rearing from the remaining stock in the Country. There are some real nasties still waiting in the wings - who wants to risk importing Tropilaelaps to the Country?
Local associations are trying to get members involved in learning how to rear queens and surely that is the safest way to build stocks - and to build knowledge and experience. I would add on a personal level that I had a single black bee colony at one point. They were a little fiesty, but were amazingly productive. They were a caught swarm. Jus sayin...
There doesn't seem to be a sound argument for continued imports from the continent at this time.

 

[mbc]

I'm not taking sides here but... Isn't what you suggest exactly what the US did in the 1920s? And arguably they, at that time, were closer to having an Amm base population than most parts of the UK currently are.

Of course, if the US queen rearers had concentrated on breeding from the existing Amm population then things may have turned out differently. Likewise, a ban of imports here won't in itself result in any kind of population shift towards Amm; the people with the skill and knowledge will drive the bulk queen production, those same people rarely appear to be Amm breeders.

The native Americans used to call honey bees "white man's flies" as they'd proceed settlers as they moved west and the US had no native honey bees previously, massive difference to here where they've been strutting their stuff for ~10,000 years with all the genetic diversity already embedded in the countryside.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

1 Of course not. I was just suggesting to Mintbee that it might be less fun.
2.Because the American owners are not keen on too many sub fora
It was my suggestion that one was created but the management refused.
Now stop being so holier than thou. Everybody here knows how you feel about your Irish bees. There’s not really much more to be said. It’s been repeated ad nauseam

Hear hear Dani. I'm pretty close to pressing the ignore button.

 

[Wilco]

With regard to import - this is how we've managed to spread most of the most damaging bioaflictions from other continents around the planet in the last century (talking about trees and plants as well as bees, farm animals, etc). NZ has incredibly strict biosecurity, with good reason.
After the outbreak of 'Isle of Wight Disease' here in Britain, we imported from the continent to rebuild stocks. It could be argued that what should have taken place was an intensive programme of queen rearing from the remaining stock in the Country. There are some real nasties still waiting in the wings - who wants to risk importing Tropilaelaps to the Country?
Local associations are trying to get members involved in learning how to rear queens and surely that is the safest way to build stocks - and to build knowledge and experience. I would add on a personal level that I had a single black bee colony at one point. They were a little fiesty, but were amazingly productive. They were a caught swarm. Jus sayin...
There doesn't seem to be a sound argument for continued imports from the continent at this time.

The issue many take is that there are too many 'I've had black bees' comments based solely on bees looking dark when genetic analysis has shown that most are mongrels and phenotype (looking dark) is not an accurate indicator of purity of genotype. To consider them AMM/black bees is conjecture and not scientifically sound yet often those making such claims claim they are/demand others meet scientific criteria. Some on the forum have come across this conjecture many many times. In the short time I've been on here I can think of at least three or four broadly similar discussions.

I look forward to seeing whatever data @Apiarist is working on.

 

[rolande]

The native Americans used to call honey bees "white man's flies" as they'd proceed settlers as they moved west and the US had no native honey bees previously, massive difference to here where they've been strutting their stuff for ~10,000 years with all the genetic diversity already embedded in the countryside.

I'm not sure there was such a massive difference in so far as my point isn't about how long Amm were there but rather about their dominant role until the mass imports of italians in the late 19thC. Once the ban was in place the swing to italians which was already underway simply continued.

Now, its slightly different here as there are a handful of people supplying Amm queens and obvious interest in them but it's on a comparatively small scale, Jon G who's probably the highest profile UK supplier was writing just a couple of days ago on fb that he's already booked up till the start of July and that's without the added pressure of an import ban.

I'm actually, perhaps shamefully, ambivalent to the whole issue because while I'm happy to use imports occasionally I wouldnt personally feel any impact if there was a ban. This is why I try (not always successfully) not to get too enmeshed in the debate.

I genuinely believe that a ban will result in a common mongrel bee much as we currently have in many areas and an increase, specifically, in buckfast suppliers who will dominate the marketplace. Could be their golden age.

 

[Murox]

Case in point. Was that snide finish remotely necessary? How did it move discussion forward?

Fair enough, I retract my reference to Galton though my opinion stands.

 

[Murox]

With regard to import - this is how we've managed to spread most of the most damaging bioaflictions from other continents around the planet in the last century (talking about trees and plants as well as bees, farm animals, etc). NZ has incredibly strict biosecurity, with good reason.
After the outbreak of 'Isle of Wight Disease' here in Britain, we imported from the continent to rebuild stocks. It could be argued that what should have taken place was an intensive programme of queen rearing from the remaining stock in the Country. There are some real nasties still waiting in the wings - who wants to risk importing Tropilaelaps to the Country?
Local associations are trying to get members involved in learning how to rear queens and surely that is the safest way to build stocks - and to build knowledge and experience. I would add on a personal level that I had a single black bee colony at one point. They were a little fiesty, but were amazingly productive. They were a caught swarm. Jus sayin...
There doesn't seem to be a sound argument for continued imports from the continent at this time.

“Petitio principii”, and what is on the other side of the coin?

 

[pargyle]

I have to say that, as a total newbe to this forum I am really disappointed at the volume of off-topic and personal slagging off that takes place. It's totally offputting and I'm sure is keeping a lot of novice keepers from even asking questions. A few regulars here may actually know each other and their 'banter' may be otherwise good natured, but it doesn't read like that to the uninitiated. It reads as unmasked agression.
Posting an alternative view or additional information on a topic is not 'trolling' or belittling. But responding to someone's view with a slag-off retort about that person's outlook, background, previously discussed beliefs or ethics is not debate. The whole tone of some of these discussions is unnecessarily confrontational.
In my limited experiences on other forums and in actual meetings at shows and with the home association I have found fellow beekeepers to be really generous with sharing experiences and accepting that there are many, many ways to skin a beehive. Most of us (I would say 'ALL') are still learning. Climatic conditions are in flux. There are new disease threats in the wind. The experts are trialling all sorts of approaches to management of everything. Our scientific knowledge has advanced at startling speed in recent decades and even the last few years - and even with those advances of understanding the scientists will rarely give an absolute opinion; they know too much of how much there is still to understand.
I signed up on someone's recommendation. Upon signing up I was immediately 'invited' to pay a subscription. I'm afraid that the general tone of this forum is leading me to the conclusion that I won't be renewing that subscription next year - and I'm sorry I took out the year's option rather than the monthly one.

That's not the forum that I recognise... there are differences of opinion and a few zealots around that have very strong views but it's a very large and broad church and you would expect that. I find it a forum where help and advice is given freely ... and there are some very knowledgeable beekeepers on here who are both innovative and practical. Yes you are invited to subscribe but you don't have to .. its a small price to pay for a few advantages in terms of being advert free. There is a beginners section which is more heavily moderated than other parts of the forum to ensure beginners have a section where they are protected from the occasional rough and tumble of the main forum. It's assumed that if you play in the main forum that you are able to sort out what you want to read ... without mods removing or editing posts. We don't tolerate personal attacks or comments or anything that would bring disrepute to the forum but humour and banter has always been a characteristic of the place and you can either take it or leave it and move on to another post/thread. We don't want a stale, moribund forum ...this one has life and vitality .. stick around and look a bit further and you may start to agree ... if not there are other places but few that have what is on offer here.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's not the forum that I recognise... there are differences of opinion and a few zealots around that have very strong views but it's a very large and broad church and you would expect that. I find it a forum where help and advice is given freely ... and there are some very knowledgeable beekeepers on here who are both innovative and practical. Yes you are invited to subscribe but you don't have to .. its a small price to pat for a few advantages in terms of being advert free. There is a beginners section which is more heavily moderated than other parts of the forum to ensure beginners have a section where they are protected from the occasional rough and tumble of the main forum. It's assumed that if you play in the main forum that you are able to sort out what you want to read ... without mods removing or editing posts. We don't tolerate personal attacks or comments or anything that would bring disrepute to the forum but humour and banter has always been a characteristic of the place and you can either take it or leave it and move on to another post/thread. We don't want a stale, moribund forum ...this one has life and vitality .. stick around and look a bit further and you may start to agree ... if not there are other places but few that have what is on offer here.

Thanks for that Phillip. It’s good to get a reminder of how lucky we are to have this forum.

 

[Swarm]

It would be nice to have a discussion about Amm / Native Bees without the obligatory insults?

Look at this innocent request. In the Beginners Section.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...reater-manchester-area-for-this-spring.52022/Dear me, he mentioned 'local'.

As I said earlier, I urge people to stop the name calling, it's not a very desirable trait and it will never help any form of reasoned discourse.

 

[pargyle]

It would be nice to have a discussion about Amm / Native Bees without the obligatory insults?

Look at this innocent request. In the Beginners Section.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...reater-manchester-area-for-this-spring.52022/Dear me, he mentioned 'local'.

As I said earlier, I urge people to stop the name calling, it's not a very desirable trait and it will never help any form of reasoned discourse.

Perhaps I'm missing something Steve ? All I can see in there is some fairly helpful comments and a couple of attempts at humour.... perhaps reading a bit too much into it ? Clearly, at this time of the year there are not going to be that many options for buying bees so I'm not surprised that the comments are not direct replies to the OP ... but pertinent in the circumstamces.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Let’s keep this thread going. I’m working on a solution to everybody’s problem with it.

 

[pargyle]

Let’s keep this thread going. I’m working on a solution to everybody’s problem with it.

I don't see any major problem with it ... it's a topic of interest even if it's attracting some fairly opposed viewpoints ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Fair enough.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

i find this forum invaluable

some unnecessary 'tetchy' moments but tend to ignore them and look for positives in most posts

a better description of beginners section versus general forum for experienced may help....i wondered what the difference was for a while but get the heavier moderation comment above and it makes sense.

 

[Finman]

It would be nice to have a discussion about Amm / Native Bees without the obligatory insults?

A few years have gone, and same arguments live in this forum. Nothing new has become to daylight.

The Tamar Valley guy started the fake news delivering and it has spreaded to the whole UK.
This issue can only became better.