"Survivor bees" found in Blenheim Forest

[Swarm]

OK. Let's draw a line and stop 'name calling'.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Exactly what I was thinking. This thread has run its course.

 

[Swarm]

If anyone would like to discuss Amm/Native Black Bees, I can easily start a blog where you can do just that.

 

[user 20297]

If anyone would like to discuss Amm/Native Black Bees, I can easily start a blog where you can do just that.


Please do!

 

[user 20297]

Is that a joke? You actually think this is trolling. Good heavens!

If I remember there were calls for an Amm specific sub forum on here and it wasn't allowed. Why was that again?

If "trolling" is something intended to be disruptive to forum discourse and to provoke an emotional response from those to whom it is directed, you are showing a calm and steely resolve in the face of a bit of hobgoblinry.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If anyone would like to discuss Amm/Native Black Bees, I can easily start a blog where you can do just that.

Excellent. Job done.

 

[Swarm]

Done.
Feel free to visit, I will try to salvage some of the interesting things mentioned in other threads, even if I have to just post a list.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You can link individual posts as your list

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I assumed that this
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/forums/native-bee-wasp-species.88/was the Sub Section on this Forum for Amm's ?

No - that was set up for other bee species (not all bees are honeybees you know

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

there was suggestion that the specific discussion of Amm would have enhanced moderation to stop the tiresome 'trolling' by Amm haters.

From what I've observed it's mostly been the other way around

 

[Wilco]

Eh - not when that evolution is being driven by continued imports.

Still evolution. Variation in genetics, heritability and selection pressure. Those which co-exist most effectively with humans and the havoc we wreak survive better.

 

[Lislarybees]

The spread of ash die back is horrible to see. It has reached where I live right on the very west coast of Ireland in the last two years and a small plantation of ten year old trees I planted have suffered very badly. I have much older ash on site and so far they don't show much damage but I guess it is just a matter of time. Is it not another cautionary tale against imports?

How did ash dieback get here?
The spores of this fungus can travel in the wind so it is possible that it arrived in the UK naturally however it was also inadvertently imported on ash saplings. The UK was importing thousands of ash plants from infected parts of Europe until a ban came into place in 2012. This undoubtedly sped up the spread of the disease within the UK because the disease was able to spread from areas of new planting via wind to mature trees.

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/tr...ases/key-tree-pests-and-diseases/ash-dieback/

 

[Lislarybees]

Still evolution. Variation in genetics, heritability and selection pressure. Those which co-exist most effectively with humans and the havoc we wreak survive better.

If you stopped imports right now and let nature run its course - you would then have an experiment in 'genetics, heritability and selection pressure' - my thoughts would be that in time the pure/near pure Amm populations in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland/Northumberland would expand their range and the local bees throughout the more heavily hybridised areas would become more Amm dominant. Constant importation is just ecocide not evolution.

 

[Lislarybees]

Hi Dani,
I feel strongly about British Amm too and French and Belgian, Swiss, Russian - I could go on. But I guess you already know that The point is I would be just as strong an advocate for Carnica in their native range or Linguistica in theirs. Or any of the other subspecies.

It is a shame you perceive it as me 'going on' about this topic but I do limit it to threads where Amm is specifically mentioned. I don't go commenting on threads where someone is talking about their colonies of Buckfast/Carnica etc. and start putting them down (thats the bees I am talking about), mocking them, pointing out the negatives associated with these subspecies/hybrids. It appears to me any time Amm is mentioned in its own thread it turns into open season for it's detractors.

1 Of course not. I was just suggesting to Mintbee that it might be less fun.
2.Because the American owners are not keen on too many sub fora
It was my suggestion that one was created but the management refused.
Now stop being so holier than thou. Everybody here knows how you feel about your Irish bees. There’s not really much more to be said. It’s been repeated ad nauseam

 

[Lislarybees]

Done.
Feel free to visit, I will try to salvage some of the interesting things mentioned in other threads, even if I have to just post a list.

Hi Steve, please excuse my forum illiteracy - how do I find the blog?

And before anyone points out the Blogs tab - I looked there before asking

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Steve, please excuse my forum illiteracy - how do I find the blog?

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/amm-native-black-bee-discussion.52036/

 

[Mint Bee]

If you stopped imports right now and let nature run its course - you would then have an experiment in 'genetics, heritability and selection pressure' - my thoughts would be that in time the pure/near pure Amm populations in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland/Northumberland would expand their range and the local bees throughout the more heavily hybridised areas would become more Amm dominant. Constant importation is just ecocide not evolution.

bottom line is that by calling for a ban on imports (including AMMs) you would condemn many beekeepers to keeping poor quality bees for a generation. BIBBA and others have discussed this but seem to have be unable to come up with any sort of co-ordinated plan to support beekeepers with the poor bees in parts of the country. There is a market for early bees and queens of all species to support existing and new beekeepers and I see no plan to meet this demand

If you can come up with plan for support the beekeepers that would be impacted by this then you might get better support. Personally I still see no evidence of pure AMMs (I have seen nothing to define what is a pure breed either) so you are working from hybrids to start with. What you get with the proposed experiment would be a mishmash of genetics. impure AMM would become local mongrels. Phenotype is not a reliable marker for genotype, so are you suggesting breeding is only conducted after genetic analysis of stock to see how pure it is? How many have access to this?

As you are based in Sligo, why not focus on a plan for Ireland, rather than trying to stir up trouble in the UK - that is why I referred to your post as trolling - its inflammatory to a lot of people.

This thread was originally about claims of special bees without any data to support this. Your arguments are likewise filled with hyperbole, so will undoubtedly be challenged.

show me the data and evidence and I can make my own mind up. There is nothing in your posts for me to make an assessment of the your claims. Provide evidence of pure AMMs, of a plan to implement an effective ban without impacting livelihoods of others and of how the future state bee genetics in the UK would meet current needs for productive, calm and consistent bees.

 

[rolande]

If you stopped imports right now and let nature run its course - you would then have an experiment in 'genetics, heritability and selection pressure' - my thoughts would be that in time the pure/near pure Amm populations in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland/Northumberland would expand their range and the local bees throughout the more heavily hybridised areas would become more Amm dominant. Constant importation is just ecocide not evolution.

I'm not taking sides here but... Isn't what you suggest exactly what the US did in the 1920s? And arguably they, at that time, were closer to having an Amm base population than most parts of the UK currently are.

Of course, if the US queen rearers had concentrated on breeding from the existing Amm population then things may have turned out differently. Likewise, a ban of imports here won't in itself result in any kind of population shift towards Amm; the people with the skill and knowledge will drive the bulk queen production, those same people rarely appear to be Amm breeders.

 

[Ian123]

Very few commercial want AMM in this country or in any other part of the world. The main problem with AMM is a lack of breading or programs that other races/strains have seen.

 

[Wilco]

If you stopped imports right now and let nature run its course - you would then have an experiment in 'genetics, heritability and selection pressure' - my thoughts would be that in time the pure/near pure Amm populations in Cornwall/Wales/Scotland/Northumberland would expand their range and the local bees throughout the more heavily hybridised areas would become more Amm dominant. Constant importation is just ecocide not evolution.

Humans are part of nature too.