"Survivor bees" found in Blenheim Forest

[Lislarybees]

Know what? This isn't a decent kick-around of thoughts. I've tired of your self-important dismissal. It's a complex discussion and your dismissal suggests you haven't really looked far beyond your own opinions.
View attachment 29705
(diagram from Complex Demographic History and Evolutionary Origin of the Western Honey Bee, Apis Mellifera - worth a read, but only one source from a rich seam of on-going research)
It's a big - and really interesting - discussion. Start reading further. Try keeping an open mind and just allow yourself the opportunity to grow a little. Don't bother to reply to me.

Bumbling Beekeeper - From what I have read on this forum there are a number of contributors that peddle in wilful ignorance, obfuscation and denigration at any mention of Amm. Finman chief amongst them. He keeps talking about his qualifications in genetics but then argues that it is okay for subspecies to be wiped out because scientists now don't think subspecies are important anymore. I guess if you want to justify the massive collapse in planetary biodiversity caused by human action you have to tell yourself something but I'm not sure there are many evolutionary biologists that would support that take on things.

Just for anyone reading this who might be new to the forum. Amm are the native subspecies of honeybee bee for most of northern Europe. There is no scientific argument to contradict that.
Their population collapse has been brought about by human action. There is no scientific argument to contradict that.
If you are keeping non-amm within Amm's former natural range you are just aiding and perpetuating that collapse. There is no scientific argument against that.

Queue the 'I wont be told what kind of bee I can keep' - 'I can keep any bee i want' 'Amm never existed they are just a fairytale' blah blah

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

discussion is far from over in scientific circles,

Big difference between science and the crackpot theories bandied about by Phellipe and others offered up as 'proof'

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thought it wouldn't be long before the fundamentalists pipe up

 

[Bumbling Keeper]

Big difference between science and the crackpot theories bandied about by Phellipe and others offered up as 'proof'

Totally agree - but there are all sorts of openings to genuine discussion, including the crackpot ones. I would also suggest that observations 'in the field' often trigger scientific investigation. I don't know this Phellipe chap or his history so I don't have an axe to grind here.

 

[Bumbling Keeper]

Now 50 years later I should kee open mind in these innovative forums.

I don't see much innovation taking place in this discussion. Just the reverse - and yes, if you've been properly involved for the past 50 years you'll be well aware of how much our understanding and actual knowledge is changing. Hanging on to what you learned 50 years ago is exactly the attitude that is driving humanity to destroy its place on this planet. Jeesh!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

if you've been properly involved for the past 50 years you'll be well aware of how much our understanding and actual knowledge is changing.

Also how much b**ll*x is spouted by some who claim to 'know the science'

 

[Lislarybees]

Thought it wouldn't be long before the fundamentalists pipe up

Sadly i can't find a face palm emoji

 

[Finman]

I don't see much innovation taking place in this discussion. Just the reverse - and yes, if you've been properly involved for the past 50 years you'll be well aware of how much our understanding and actual knowledge is changing. Hanging on to what you learned 50 years ago is exactly the attitude that is driving humanity to destroy its place on this planet. Jeesh!

Maybe something had changed in 50 years. But not a native Black Bee.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Nope. When my time is up I will cease to exist

Aye but your spirit will live on so you don't get away with it so easily

 

[madasafish]

Queue the 'I wont be told what kind of bee I can keep' - 'I can keep any bee i want' 'Amm never existed they are just a fairytale' blah blah

Writes the beekeeper who wants to make us all keep AMM.

 

[Mint Bee]

Bumbling Beekeeper - From what I have read on this forum there are a number of contributors that peddle in wilful ignorance, obfuscation and denigration at any mention of Amm. Finman chief amongst them. He keeps talking about his qualifications in genetics but then argues that it is okay for subspecies to be wiped out because scientists now don't think subspecies are important anymore. I guess if you want to justify the massive collapse in planetary biodiversity caused by human action you have to tell yourself something but I'm not sure there are many evolutionary biologists that would support that take on things.

Just for anyone reading this who might be new to the forum. Amm are the native subspecies of honeybee bee for most of northern Europe. There is no scientific argument to contradict that.
Their population collapse has been brought about by human action. There is no scientific argument to contradict that.
If you are keeping non-amm within Amm's former natural range you are just aiding and perpetuating that collapse. There is no scientific argument against that.

Queue the 'I wont be told what kind of bee I can keep' - 'I can keep any bee i want' 'Amm never existed they are just a fairytale' blah blah

If you detest this forum and the opinions given by members so much why are you involved here? You do come across as a Troll with posts like this. Why not set up a AMM dedicated Irish forum and you can discuss 'pure' AMMs to your hearts content?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Most of us keep bees of all sorts without being worried about their genes. Most of us don’t care for being told which ones we can keep.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why not set up a AMM dedicated Irish forum and you can discuss 'pure' AMMs to your hearts content?

Because there’s no fun in that?

 

[Finman]

Because there’s no fun in that?

It is like religion, except religion does not want DNA proofs.

 

[Boston Bees]

Why not set up a AMM dedicated Irish forum and you can discuss 'pure' AMMs to your hearts content?

For the same reason that Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door rather than just have meetings between themselves.

 

[Finman]

Most of us keep bees of all sorts without being worried about their genes. Most of us don’t care for being told which ones we can keep.

Black beekeepers are only, who are worried about genes.

I wonder what is the status of Carniolan bee in England? It is black and busy to make early swarms. When I had Carniolans and Black bees, some Carniola breeds started swarming in May. Black bees started a month later.

If Carniolan and Black bee crosses, the color may be something. And when they cross, they are allready crossings.

I know Carniolan x Italian color mixture.

 

[Frizzaldo]

Totally agree - but there are all sorts of openings to genuine discussion, including the crackpot ones. I would also suggest that observations 'in the field' often trigger scientific investigation. I don't know this Phellipe chap or his history so I don't have an axe to grind here.

well this thread is about Filipe and his Blenheim bees so do a bit of research on the fella before blindly defending him..
However I suspect it may be too late as it appears he is erasing his Internet footprint.

If someone went about this the right way and had the DNA evidence before going to the Guardian he would have got a much different reaction but it appears he's just after the publicity.

 

[Finman]

July 2021: no-one-knew-they-existed-wild-heirs-of-lost-british-honeybee-found-at-blenheim


GREAT NEWS. From this evolution war started.

Honey bee had its own history, but then DNA mapping chanģed everything.

Now 20 years later Blenheim advertising news changed everything. Even my university education had been nullified, or casted to same bin.

 

[Martinreed]

well this thread is about Filipe and his Blenheim bees so do a bit of research on the fella before blindly defending him..
However I suspect it may be too late as it appears he is erasing his Internet footprint.

If someone went about this the right way and had the DNA evidence before going to the Guardian he would have got a much different reaction but it appears he's just after the publicity.

The Crowfunding page was removed at his request.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Black beekeepers are only, who are worried about genes.

I wonder what is the status of Carniolan bee in England? It is black and busy to make early swarms. When I had Carniolans and Black bees, some Carniola breeds started swarming in May. Black bees started a month later.

If Carniolan and Black bee crosses, the color may be something. And when they cross, they are allready crossings.

I know Carniolan x Italian color mixture.

I've seen Carnica bees which they thought were amms.
I also know that one of our out apiaries colonys has slowly come to look and perform like carnicia bees, after some conversation a beekeeper a few miles away has three wbc colonys with them.