Supersedure to delay swarming?

[Erichalfbee]

And therein lies the answer to the hard to find stuff

But one thing I have found is that there are no effective shortcuts

 

[pargyle]

There are always people in beekeeping with their hearts and minds solely focused on reinventing the wheel ... I applaud this ..what bothers me is that they find something that works ONCE and then add it to Youtube as the latest and best thing since sliced bread and pursuade others to follow their path. Often with less than satisfactory results !

Swarm control has been around since Langstroth invented framed hives - there are plenty of reliable, trusted and well tried methods that are successful - anyone who would want to stray to the extraordinary should do so with caution and with a serious note of scepticism in case it does not work.

 

[Blunt Spike]

Can I ask, what is your need to use this particular idea?

If your colony is wanting to swarm, dropping a queen cell in and it isn't destroyed and you haven't found the old queen then whats stopping them swarming when it emerges...so what have you achieved?

If they weren't thinking of swarming then why would you do this in the first place?

If you find swarm cells but you have a limit on how many colonies you can have, then why not split or demaree, make the one half hopelessly queenless and merge them back together. It used to work for me when I was limited to 2 hives. Maybe I just got lucky!

Timing on when to add the space to a colony may be worth researching first and could save you $30.

YouTube is a great source of information, but, I never see people posting about failures often. They also need to find that clickbait subject that no one else is creating content on... usually there is a reason for that.

North Shropshire Beekeepers association is well worth considering if you're not already a member. I know a couple of their members and they are very friendly and have loads of knowledge and experience that they will share with you and you can gets hands on at their apiary.

Keep asking questions on here, some of the experts may seem a little sharp in their replies, but, their answers are usually the best given the circumstances... not seeing the issue and trying to answer in a concise manner (I've clearly not learned that yet lol.)

 

[Anduril]

There are always people in beekeeping with their hearts and minds solely focused on reinventing the wheel ... I applaud this ..what bothers me is that they find something that works ONCE and then add it to Youtube as the latest and best thing since sliced bread and pursuade others to follow their path. Often with less than satisfactory results !

Swarm control has been around since Langstroth invented framed hives - there are plenty of reliable, trusted and well tried methods that are successful - anyone who would want to stray to the extraordinary should do so with caution and with a serious note of scepticism in case it does not work.

Why the negativity, let's take you back to 2017 and Michael Palmer's response.
This is more than something that works 'ONCE'.

 

[BaconWizard]

Can I ask, what is your need to use this particular idea?

If your colony is wanting to swarm, dropping a queen cell in and it isn't destroyed and you haven't found the old queen then whats stopping them swarming when it emerges...so what have you achieved?

If they weren't thinking of swarming then why would you do this in the first place?

If you find swarm cells but you have a limit on how many colonies you can have, then why not split or demaree, make the one half hopelessly queenless and merge them back together. It used to work for me when I was limited to 2 hives. Maybe I just got lucky!

Timing on when to add the space to a colony may be worth researching first and could save you $30.

YouTube is a great source of information, but, I never see people posting about failures often. They also need to find that clickbait subject that no one else is creating content on... usually there is a reason for that.

North Shropshire Beekeepers association is well worth considering if you're not already a member. I know a couple of their members and they are very friendly and have loads of knowledge and experience that they will share with you and you can gets hands on at their apiary.

Keep asking questions on here, some of the experts may seem a little sharp in their replies, but, their answers are usually the best given the circumstances... not seeing the issue and trying to answer in a concise manner (I've clearly not learned that yet lol.)

I don't have a NEED per-se. What I have is an inquiring mind.

If they actually work, then more options IS better.

Some sources seem to suggest that a superseded colony is much less likely to swarm.
I am expecting the PDF for this article to arrive in my inbox today, for example:
https://eurekamag.com/research/000/475/000475270.php
Since there are many methods of inducing supersedure, I would like to know if the swarm-prevention or at least delay aspect is correct or not.

I am not remotely interested in anyone who thinks I shouldn't be interested in it (I am not including you in that catergory, just putting it out-there)
I will stop being interested in it when I have an answer (while acknowledging that "we can't find out for sure right now" IS an answer too) and then there there will be another thing after that, and it will continue to be that way until I am dead and buried with some answers and likely more questions than I started-with. That's my prerogative.

Btw, I grew-up in Market Drayton until the age of about 9 (I don't recommend it lol, although the canal is nice)

 

[pargyle]

Why the negativity, let's take you back to 2017 and Michael Palmer's response.
This is more than something that works 'ONCE'.

No negativity at all ... I'm probably one of the more off the wall beekeepers on here ... I've tried lots of things that others have poo poo'd and laughed at sometimes. I've picked up ideas from the internet, other people and I've always followed my own ideas. I've experimented - sometimes with success - but I accept that what I do, with my bees, in my location, with my hives is what it is - something that works for me - I don't broadcast on YouTube or encourage people to follow what I do without the caveat that it only works for me ... follow me at your peril.

I agree with Mike Palmer - sometimes things that work once do work consistently ... but the vast majority are one hit wonders - and I have no issue with these - perhaps with some modification they could be made to work.

The issue I have is people who invent the square wheel but refuse to accept it for what it is ... and portray it, very publicly, as a solution to a problem that has largely been solved. Innovate by all means - but let's not pretend that some marginal (and often complicated) machinations are better than what is already available - with a far higher guarantee of success.

 

[rolande]

@BaconWizard , I can see where your train of thought is coming from but in this specific scenario I'm inclined to think that the addition of the cell at swarming time may well be just as likely to trigger a swarm as to suppress the urge. But that's just my thought based on general beekeeping experience.

 

[Anduril]

No negativity at all ... I'm probably one of the more off the wall beekeepers on here ... I've tried lots of things that others have poo poo'd and laughed at sometimes. I've picked up ideas from the internet, other people and I've always followed my own ideas. I've experimented - sometimes with success - but I accept that what I do, with my bees, in my location, with my hives is what it is - something that works for me - I don't broadcast on YouTube or encourage people to follow what I do without the caveat that it only works for me ... follow me at your peril.

I agree with Mike Palmer - sometimes things that work once do work consistently ... but the vast majority are one hit wonders - and I have no issue with these - perhaps with some modification they could be made to work.

The issue I have is people who invent the square wheel but refuse to accept it for what it is ... and portray it, very publicly, as a solution to a problem that has largely been solved. Innovate by all means - but let's not pretend that some marginal (and often complicated) machinations are better than what is already available - with a far higher guarantee of success.

I forgot to add the link, considering it is practiced worldwide. Back to 2017.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/queen-introduction.38905/

 

[pargyle]

@Anduril >> But, what is being talked about here is superscedure as a method of swarm control ... it's something different altogether. Introducing a queen cell to a queenright colony will not, reliably and effectively, work to prevent a colony swarming. Similarly, the much vaunted theory that first year queens will not swarm ... is also unreliable.

The reality is that Demaree as a pre-emptive method of preventing swarms is pretty reliable - but, what you are doing is creating conditions that remove some of the triggers that promote swarming. If you simply try to replace the queen with a new queen ... even if you manage to promote a false supercedure - if you ignore the other triggers -the odds are that they colony will still swarm.

 

[user 20297]

@Anduril >> But, what is being talked about here is superscedure as a method of swarm control ... it's something different altogether. Introducing a queen cell to a queenright colony will not, reliably and effectively, work to prevent a colony swarming. Similarly, the much vaunted theory that first year queens will not swarm ... is also unreliable.

The reality is that Demaree as a pre-emptive method of preventing swarms is pretty reliable - but, what you are doing is creating conditions that remove some of the triggers that promote swarming. If you simply try to replace the queen with a new queen ... even if you manage to promote a false supercedure - if you ignore the other triggers -the odds are that they colony will still swarm.

Blooming heck....covering all bases now.

 

[pargyle]

Blooming heck....covering all bases now.

You see - my advice is always to try it if you think it will work. I'd rather have a thinkng beekeeper who occasionally gets things wrong than one who blindly follows what they have been 'told' by generations of misguided and out of date beekeepers who have followed what they have been 'told' and perpetuate myths ....

The problem is that some of these myths started out as one hit wonders .....

 

[user 20297]

You see - my advice is always to try it if you think it will work. I'd rather have a thinkng beekeeper who occasionally gets things wrong than one who blindly follows what they have been 'told' by generations of misguided and out of date beekeepers who have followed what they have been 'told' and perpetuate myths ....

The problem is that some of these myths started out as one hit wonders .....

Absolutely agree with all that, @BaconWizard clearly fits that specification and good for him....But "superscedure"?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

@BaconWizard , I can see where your train of thought is coming from but in this specific scenario I'm inclined to think that the addition of the cell at swarming time may well be just as likely to trigger a swarm as to suppress the urge. But that's just my thought based on general beekeeping experience.

 

[Anduril]

@pargyle The question from the OP was to delay swarming, before they have the urge, not as a method of swarm control,when the urge is unstoppable. These scenarios are quite distinct and it is all about timing. Even a demaree is not guaranteed and it is a method I very rarely use these days.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Even a demaree is not guaranteed and it is a method I very rarely use these days.

I use it extensively and it rarely fails (as long as you ignore the yootoob 'experts' and do it properly)

 

[Anduril]

I use it extensively and it rarely fails (as long as you ignore the yootoob 'experts' and do it properly)

YouTube wasn't around when I was a youngster.

 

[Blunt Spike]

I don't have a NEED per-se. What I have is an inquiring mind.

If they actually work, then more options IS better.

Some sources seem to suggest that a superseded colony is much less likely to swarm.
I am expecting the PDF for this article to arrive in my inbox today, for example:
https://eurekamag.com/research/000/475/000475270.php
Since there are many methods of inducing supersedure, I would like to know if the swarm-prevention or at least delay aspect is correct or not.

I am not remotely interested in anyone who thinks I shouldn't be interested in it (I am not including you in that catergory, just putting it out-there)
I will stop being interested in it when I have an answer (while acknowledging that "we can't find out for sure right now" IS an answer too) and then there there will be another thing after that, and it will continue to be that way until I am dead and buried with some answers and likely more questions than I started-with. That's my prerogative.

Btw, I grew-up in Market Drayton until the age of about 9 (I don't recommend it lol, although the canal is nice)

At my age, growing up anywhere isn't a possibility as im not Benjamin Button lol.

Keep up the good work, someone has to try new things or we'd all still be hunter gatherers.

 

[RichardK]

@pargyle The question from the OP was to delay swarming, before they have the urge, not as a method of swarm control,when the urge is unstoppable. These scenarios are quite distinct and it is all about timing. Even a demaree is not guaranteed and it is a method I very rarely use these days.

I completely agree. Most responses to this thread do not focus on or even try to answer the question. There are people who talk about supersedure whilst ignoring the 'delay swarming' part of the question, shout down incredibly useful sources of information because they don't like them, debate about cutting the queens legs off, talk about first year queens swarming...... And this is all from experienced beekeepers and forum contributors who need, IMHO, to try better. And if you can't, then say nothing.

Sutty, pargyle, and Anduril who has tried to knock things back on track are what I regard as the more useful responses. pargyle who, whilst he doesn't think it will work is still able to discuss if like an adult.....a formula for some others to follow perchance? Responses like: "instead, just look at cr@p on yootoob? if it's hard to find there's usually a good reason - usually just some nutjob who's been given a video camera for Christmas searching for their fifteen minutes of fame." are of no help and laughable.

On more than one occasion I've read people saying this is the best beekeeping forum on the internet. If people would like to keep it that way keep the humour, stay on topic (most of the time), be nice to people and cut the crap.

 

[BaconWizard]

@BaconWizard , I can see where your train of thought is coming from but in this specific scenario I'm inclined to think that the addition of the cell at swarming time may well be just as likely to trigger a swarm as to suppress the urge. But that's just my thought based on general beekeeping experience.

I can definitely see the logic there.
I am not even sure HOW useful it would be if it works, but I just gotta know!

 

[BaconWizard]

I completely agree. Most responses to this thread do not focus on or even try to answer the question. There are people who talk about supersedure whilst ignoring the 'delay swarming' part of the question, shout down incredibly useful sources of information because they don't like them, debate about cutting the queens legs off, talk about first year queens swarming...... And this is all from experienced beekeepers and forum contributors who need, IMHO, to try better. And if you can't, then say nothing.

Sutty, pargyle, and Anduril who has tried to knock things back on track are what I regard as the more useful responses. pargyle who, whilst he doesn't think it will work is still able to discuss if like an adult.....a formula for some others to follow perchance? Responses like: "instead, just look at cr@p on yootoob? if it's hard to find there's usually a good reason - usually just some nutjob who's been given a video camera for Christmas searching for their fifteen minutes of fame." are of no help and laughable.

On more than one occasion I've read people saying this is the best beekeeping forum on the internet. If people would like to keep it that way keep the humour, stay on topic (most of the time), be nice to people and cut the crap.

Yes indeed. Fortunately I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough to recognise and summarily dismiss from my thoughts certain types of people here just as I would in life. They have made themselves irrelevant.
But I am considerably less delicate in this regard than many who will simply go elsewhere or quit the hobby.
Perhaps they need a slogan:
“Make Apiculture Great Again”
Red caps and other merch coming soon!

Others however are interested in answering the question, even if it’s in the negative, which is just fine.
This is not about me putting forward an idea and insisting I’m right.
It’s an honest question and I’ll be happy to have a definitive answer no matter what it turns out to be.