Supersedure split?

[Martin G]

Yesterdays inspection revealed a supersedure cell (90% sure) It’s got royal jelly but I couldn’t quite see how developed the lave/egg was. There were a couple of other empty cups but nothing which seemed well developed.

The existing queen seems to be laying fine with good brood pattern, so the plan is to use the supersedure cell to make increase. Then if the queen does fail in a few weeks time I will, hopefully be in a position to replace her.

The last inspection before this was only 2 days previous when I originally saw the cell with nothing in it, hence rechecking yesterday, so I assume there is an egg in the cell, with that in mind do the nurse bees start filling the cell with royal jelly before the egg hatches? I suppose on the first inspection there could have been an egg which I missed.

I thought of taking the frame with the cell on, once it’s sealed, with a mix of capped/uncapped brood and some stores and moving them to a nuc.

Alternative was to move the existing queen with the mix of frames to the nuc and leave the supersedure cell in the existing hive.

Any ideas on which would work best.

I estimate that the cell should be capped at the earliest in 3 days alternatively 4

 

[Poly Hive]

I would bet the farm that cell has a grub in it as it has RJ there.

If it were an egg there would not be RJ in it.

I suggest you missed the egg.

If you remove it what do you think the bees will do next?

PH

 

[Martin G]

The thinking is that if I can make the colony think that the queen has been replaced it will continue on. This was why I wasn’t sure which way would work best.

If I move the queen with some brood and nurse bees then they may keep going with her better than if I leave her in the hive with older bees. The more I think about it it would seem more logical to move the queen to the nuc and leave the QC with the remaining bees in the existing hive.

Do you think if I do the split once the QC is capped that would be the best timing?


Martin

 

[Poly Hive]

If you leave the queen in they will carry raising sup cells which can be advantageous.

Or if you remove her then the colony will stutter along with the virgin.

Depends on what you want to achieve?

PH

 

[itma]

...
Do you think if I do the split once the QC is capped that would be the best timing?

By then, the colony would quite likely have 'split' itself ... if it isn't supercedure ...

 

[Martin G]

It just seemed like an opportunity to try and make increase using a supersedure cell rather than a swarm one, but I suppose the principle is basically the same just that in the original hive I intend to leave the ‘older’ bees with the QC and in the NUC put young bees and the queen.

There is probably something amiss with the queen that I can’t see but the bees can, but if the split fails I’ll re-queen or reunite them.

Martin

 

[Martin G]

By then, the colony would quite likely have 'split' itself ... if it isn't supercedure ...

This is exactly what I was wondering, when do they actually replace the old queen, do they wait until the new one has hatched, is mated or just when the cell is caped


Martin

 

[Poly Hive]

That's just it they don't!

The two may well co-exist for long enough. I have heard of it going on for as long at 15 months.

PH

 

[Swarm]

I created a nuc with supersedure cell, brood, stores and shook more bees and left the queen in situ in the hive. All went well with the nuc and the hive happily settled down. The queen was superseded some time later at the start of Autumn.

 

[Martin G]

Well the best laid plans and all that …….. went into the hive this afternoon to do the split:
On the frame with the sup cell there were a couple of others, but just started. Moved this frame which also had good brood at various ages and stores. Took another frame of brood at varying stages and 2 frames with a mix of pollen and honey and a frame of drawn comb with some stores, oh and plenty of bees, mostly nurse.

All seemed fine until I couldn’t find the Queen, rechecked the main hive, then the nuc then the main hive again but no luck.

Popped the lid on the nuc and closed the entrance, put the hive back together and let them all calm down. Went out around 9:30 to move the nuc to a new position only to find there was a gap between the nuc roof and box, not sure how many bees have come out but sealed the edges with duct tape.

I’ll re-examine the main hive tomorrow to try and locate the queen.
Those best laid plans may include mice and men but obviously not bees!



Martin

 

[Martin G]

Best laid plans

Well the best laid plans and all that …….. went into the hive this afternoon to do the split:
On the frame with the sup cell there were a couple of others, but just started. Moved this frame which also had good brood at various ages and stores. Took another frame of brood at varying stages and 2 frames with a mix of pollen and honey and a frame of drawn comb with some stores, oh and plenty of bees, mostly nurse.

All seemed fine until I couldn’t find the Queen, rechecked the main hive, then the nuc then the main hive again but no luck.

Popped the lid on the nuc and closed the entrance, put the hive back together and let them all calm down. Went out around 9:30 to move the nuc to a new position only to find there was a gap between the nuc roof and box, not sure how many bees have come out but sealed the edges with duct tape.

I’ll re-examine the main hive tomorrow to try and locate the queen.
Those best laid plans may include mice and men but obviously not bees!



Martin

 

[Tim1606]

That's just it they don't!

The two may well co-exist for long enough. I have heard of it going on for as long at 15 months.

PH

One of ours that superseded last year are still together after 9 months.
The colony is on double brood (poly) and recently i place a queen excluder inbetween and placed each queen in a seperate box to see if they are both laying. Suprise suprise they were, although the older one is beginning to look a bit thinner now.

 

[Tim1606]

Martin G. Your colony is wanting to change the queen, so to me i would leave it alone. The bees know what they want, thats why they are going through supersedure. There may be something wrong with her that only they know about.

 

[Martin G]

I was thinking that but also thought I’d use the opportunity to try a sup split. I’m planning to try raising some queens over the next few weeks so if the original one fails I (hopefully) will be in a position to replace her.

It was more of a learning curve thing to see how it worked to be honest. In years to come I may not be raising queens and might still want to make a split, so It could be useful to know how these things work.

Martin

 

[robmort]

Pity there was no final conclusion to this thread as it raised interesting questions that, afaik, are still unanswered.

 

[Finman]

.
If you leave the laying Queen over Winter, you will have in spring a drone layer in the hive .
You must renew the old queen, because bees want to do that.

 

[Finman]

.
Complicated plan to do this or do that.

Buy a good laying queen. Perhaps plan will clear out. Supecedure queens are not good. They are only ordinary mongrels.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Pity there was no final conclusion to this thread as it raised interesting questions that, afaik, are still unanswered.

Concluion was pretty obvious from the outset - OP 'assumed' supersedure, probably just on the position of the cell, next time he opened, queen couldn't be found, loads of QC's - assumption was wrong and the bees had swarmed

 

[beeno]

I created a nuc with supersedure cell, brood, stores and shook more bees and left the queen in situ in the hive. All went well with the nuc and the hive happily settled down. The queen was superseded some time later at the start of Autumn.

That's what I have done this year with a sealed supersedure cell. They did make another QC next to the original one once nuced. Left both as nuc too small to swarm IMHO. Both emerged, one queen spotted coming back from orientation/mating flight, but they kept the other one. No more QCs in the main hive and she is laying well, but I expect they will supersede her later on when conditions improve.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

So bored with supersedure cells. I have requeened three big colonies using nuc method and proven 2018 Qs and they just keep popping them up. Completely expected behaviour and good Q cells but I need to get off the checking hamster-wheel as away from 17 August. They seem to swarm out the introduced Q in these circumstances, making a lottery as to who the daughter mates with etc. Not sure what the answer is to this problem other than patience and outlasting the old Q's daughters.