Supersedure cells

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Icing Sugar

New Bee
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
73
Reaction score
0
Location
UK
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
6
One of my colonies has been slow to build up this year. A recent comb change didn’t speed things up. Yesterday I found some supersedure cells in the brood box, on the brood area periphery. The workers must want a new queen who should hopefully be a more prolific layer. I thought I would take some pictures and, still being a beginner, use this as an opportunity for some personal revision. If any of my comments below are incorrect then I would be grateful for any corrections.

PICTURE ONE shows a single supersedure cell near the top of a frame. PICTURE TWO shows it to be positioned on the end of a “standoff” which will ensure that the supersedure cell is suitably suspended between combs. Furthermore, the comb immediately below it has not been fully drawn up, thereby leaving a recess for it to develop in. Neither of these features would be seen with an emergency queen cell. By the time the supercedure cells have become goblet-shaped, they typically contain an egg or larva.

PICTURE THREE shows three supersedure cells positioned tightly next to each other in a slightly more central position on the frame. They are often next to each other like this. These ones were built upon “insurance cups” that were made as the foundation was being drawn up and therefore, unlike emergency cells, you can see the foundation at the bottom of the cells because it is not obscured by the bend in a converted worker cell nor is it completely obscured by the copious royal jelly used to float the former worker larva into a better position. As you can see in PICTURE FOUR, worker bees have started to put royal jelly into the top supersedure cell (in a c-shape from about 4 o’clock to 10 o’clock) which also contains an egg, and the middle supersedure cell has an egg (at about 10 o’clock) and a little bit of royal jelly (5 o’clock).

You might typically find three or four supersedure cells in a brood box, all essentially of the same age. On at least one frame somewhere in the brood box, you would expect to find one day-old eggs in normal worker cells because there should still be an egg-laying queen in residence, albeit one that the workers want to replace. None of the tell-tale signs of a growing urge to swarm should be evident in the bees or on the frames (e.g look at the paucity of bees in all the photos).

If you find supersedure cells then do not perform an artificial swarm: simply leave everything alone for the old queen to be replaced by a new one. The workers will keep hold of the old queen for as long as possible but they will kill her if she attempts to interfere with the supersedure process. All the new queens hatch at roughly the same time but only one will survive to mate. It would not be unreasonable to keep the brood box closed for a whole four weeks when supersedure cells are first seen, after which you would hope to find a new queen laying at a prolific rate to compensate for the likely transient gap in egg laying during the supersedure process.

I suppose that I could put the single supersedure cell into a nuc if I wanted to, either for “insurance” purposes or some other reason.

Perhaps a more expert beekeeper could answer a couple of questions:

Question 1: I used two brood boxes when doing the comb change, separated by a queen excluder, so that new workers from the pre-existent brood could emerge. I put a couple of drawn frames into the new box (which was placed on top of the old box for a bit of extra warmth) for the queen to lay eggs on straight away. Nonetheless, because the workers were slow to draw up the foundation on the other frames, the comb change probably created a transient lull in egg laying: might this have acted as yet another stimulus for supersedure?

Question 2: If, during the entire lifetime of a good performing queen, I had the choice between a putting a single swarm cell or a single supersedure cell from it into a nuc, would one of these options hold distinct advantages over the other in terms of the likely swarminess or other characteristics of the progeny? Obviously, from a simple genetic perspective one would have to say that there would be no difference between either cell type. However, is there any evidence that “epigenetic” factors come into play?
 

Attachments

  • PICTURE 1.jpg
    PICTURE 1.jpg
    385.8 KB · Views: 68
  • PICTURE 2.jpg
    PICTURE 2.jpg
    338.9 KB · Views: 63
  • PICTURE 3.jpg
    PICTURE 3.jpg
    490.7 KB · Views: 60
  • PICTURE 4.jpg
    PICTURE 4.jpg
    254.7 KB · Views: 52
Slow build up followed by supercedure. Hmmmm if they were mine I would check for nosema. It may not be but those are two symptoms of it.
 
Can't comment on the 'supersedure' cells but there doesn't appear to be almost any stores on that frame??

Does the colony have other stores?
 
the comb immediately below it has not been fully drawn up, thereby leaving a recess for it to develop in. Neither of these features would be seen with an emergency queen cell.
Really? I'll have to tell that to the formerly Q- nuc I have currently awaiting the mating of a virgin created off a test frame from a QC built in a recess - bees aren't that daft.

Question 1: I used two brood boxes when doing the comb change, separated by a queen excluder, so that new workers from the pre-existent brood could emerge. I put a couple of drawn frames into the new box (which was placed on top of the old box for a bit of extra warmth) for the queen to lay eggs on straight away. Nonetheless, because the workers were slow to draw up the foundation on the other frames, the comb change probably created a transient lull in egg laying: might this have acted as yet another stimulus for supersedure?
So you didn't wait for them to draw out some of the comb before transferring queenie up there? I think you are depending too much on the assumption that these cells are supersedure cells. My thought are, not enough space, swarm cells drawn on available frame. Have you put a top entrance in on this setup - if not, they can't swarm duw to queen confined by QX



Question 2: If, during the entire lifetime of a good performing queen, I had the choice between a putting a single swarm cell or a single supersedure cell from it into a nuc, would one of these options hold distinct advantages over the other in terms of the likely swarminess or other characteristics of the progeny?

Likely swarminess isn't determined by whether it is a swarm cell - if the bees continually try to swarm then yes, but then again the same traits would be passed on if it were a supersedure cell or indeed a grafted larva. All bees are naturally conditioned to swarm (it's how they've survived for millenia) it's whether they do it when conditions are right (colony size, lack of space etc.) or whether they do it at the drop of a hat.
 
Thank you very much for your thoughts, which were very helpful. Apologies for not answering questions sooner but I have been at work.

The bees are nosema negative on microscopy. They have pretty much a full super of nectar which they collected themselves. I transferred a frame of pollen into the new brood box when I took away the old one. The queen has not been trapped since the last post.

Because of the concern expressed above that these might actually be swarm cells due to the queen not having had enough laying space, I had another look in yesterday. Twelve faces of comb are fully drawn and the queen has plenty of space to lay. No further QCs have been made and, of the four reported last time, one has been emptied. The colony itself was a prime swarm (unknown provenance) that I collected from a friend's garden last year and the queen was not superseded last autumn.

Based on the general characteristics of the QCs and the absence of any more having being made over the last three days, I am still inclined to consider them supersedure cells rather than swarm cells and I plan to deal with them accordingly. However, I have another question: Suppose I performed an artificial swarm at this point instead, on the basis that these might be swarm cells rather than supersedure cells. If the artificial swarm with the queen in it made QCs of a similar nature soon afterwards, would it be reasonable to retrospectively consider it more likely that both sets of QCs had been supersedure cells rather than swarm cells?
 
Suppose I performed an artificial swarm at this point instead, on the basis that these might be swarm cells rather than supersedure cells. If the artificial swarm with the queen in it made QCs of a similar nature soon afterwards, would it be reasonable to retrospectively consider it more likely that both sets of QCs had been supersedure cells rather than swarm cells?

Yes - that would be a reasonable assumption - also, you've covered your back, haven't lost a swarm and have gained a colony
 
Thanks Jenkinsbyrnmair for both your posts. I will update this thread in a few weeks when the outcome has become clear... hopefully it is helpful to follow these stories through.
 
Back
Top