super frame assembly

[debzbees]

Can anyone recommend a good video on how to assemble a frame? Thought it was easy, seems like it should be!

 

[the naked beekeeper]

By 2 people I know:

http://www.cornwallhoney.co.uk/beepedia/makeaframe.htm

 

[debzbees]

Thank you

 

[isc26]

Have a look at the Paynes website they hard a good one a while ago.

 

[Steve Dyer]

By 2 people I know:

http://www.cornwallhoney.co.uk/beepedia/makeaframe.htm

That video is fine, but I would add a few comments:

1. In practice there are often bits of rough wood at the top of the groove in the side frames that make it difficult to slide the wax sheet down if both bottom bars are pre-nailed in place (especially if it's warm and the wax is soft). I find it easier to nail the bottom bar above the thicker part of the top bar in place first, then slide the foundation down the slots, then put in the second bottom bar and nail it. (Even though it's not always easy to slide the bar next to the wax...).

2. Nail the bottom bars the way he says. Do not be tempted to nail the bottom bars in place "crossways" like the nails at the top. It looks stronger, but you can't remove the bottom bars later for cleaning and re-using.

3. When nailing in the piece of the top bar that grips the wax and the wires avoid nailing the gimp pin through the loop of the wire. This makes it much easier to remove the wires later when you have melted out an old frame in a solar wax extractor. It also weakens the grip of the frame on the wire such that it won't chop your finger like cheese if you ill-advisedly try to pull it out with your hand at any point.

Welcome to bee-keeping.

Steve

 

[Poly Hive]

Sorry but no the whole point of the wire loops is for the pins to go through them so secure the wax firmly.

If the frames or foundation is slightly wrong then just trim a couple of mill off the wax.

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

When nailing in the piece of the top bar that grips the wax and the wires avoid nailing the gimp pin through the loop of the wire. This makes it much easier to remove the wires later when you have melted out an old frame in a solar wax extractor. It also weakens the grip of the frame on the wire such that it won't chop your finger like cheese if you ill-advisedly try to pull it out with your hand at any point.


The loops are supposed to have the pins driven through them,but if you do it the way you suggest Steve...ie melt out the comb,what are you going to do next... re use the frame i assume,in which case you remove the top wedge anyhow to fix in new foundation,so no need to cut your hands or any such thing...simply remove wedge.

 

[victor meldrew]

Sorry but no the whole point of the wire loops is for the pins to go through them so secure the wax firmly.

If the frames or foundation is slightly wrong then just trim a couple of mill off the wax.

PH

I leave the bottom rail inline with the rebate out, which allows me to pre-bend the wire loops to 90 degrees , slide foundation down the grooves and neatly into the rebate. The wedge is then fitted and the nails DELIBERATELY placed to be driven through the wire loops ! 3 only nails required .
I have stripped thousands of frames over the years and never had a problem removing the wedge nailed thus !
I have a 'Beddows ' frame cleaning tool which is brilliant . It not only clears the grooves but has angled surfaces to allow all facets of frame parts to be scraped
VM

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Pins through wire loops.

 

[region2]

BBKA Basic exam on 24th July - 11 pins, the three in the wedge go through the wire loops to help support the wax.

R2

 

[Steve Dyer]

Sorry but no the whole point of the wire loops is for the pins to go through them so secure the wax firmly.
snip...
PH

That's what I used to think too, but the nail doesn't actually touch the loop, the gripping is done by the wood lath squashing the wire between it and the top bar. In practice this is further strengthened by the wire and the wax foundation being gripped by the inner side of the bar, and then the building of the strength by the addition of the comb itself.

The wires with smaller loops at the bottom have no nails, and just lie in the slot between the light bottom bars set in wax.

The test is what happens when the frame plus honey is spun. A tangential extractor puts the most lateral force on the comb, and the point at which it may break is about the centre of the frame. The force pulling the wires will be equal on the top and the bottom of the frame. The wires with small loops at the bottom have no nails, and just lie in the slot between the light bottom bars set in wax. The wires at the top are obviously far stronger, even with a nail just offset from the loop rather than within it. Usually however if a frame fails it falls apart in the middle - as we all know, because proximity to the wooden frame allows the natural engineering strength of the comb to hold on to the frame. If the frame doesn't fail at the bottom where there are no nails at all how can the position of the nails affect the much stronger top?

In the case of a radial extractor the frames should be placed so that the top bar is outermost (Since the cells slope slightly upwards). This of course provides a pulling force on the bottom bars which are not nailed and the weakest, whilst applying a compressive force on the top bar, the effects of which the nails would not have any influence on.

Steve

 

[oliver90owner]

I do it a little differently, too.

I check my foundation is square for a start (on an artist's cutting board) and then rely on this for frame squareness. Wax dimensions are more important with the bigger format frames. If it not square one side, it is not too much of a problem (a simple trim hopefully) - not square on both sides and it is a bear with bee space at top and bottom of the box (foundation has to go in with a gap at one end of the top bar, so the loops are not all bent level with the edge).

As vid, remove wedge and clean up both top bar and wedge, also any roughness in the top bar shoulders. Takes very few seconds and worth the time (I only use 'seconds' frames from Th*rne).

I then fit the side bars and one bottom bar, only nailing it at one end. The bottom bar chosen, is of course, the opposite side to the wedge, not the same side (BTDT). With it as square as possile nail the shoulders after bedding down with a thumper, as in the vid.

I then bend the wire loops on my foundation and lay it across the frame. I insert one edge in one groove and gently bow the sheet to slot the other end in, adjusting the free end of the bottom bar for a snug fit in the grooves. I then fit the other bottom bar (it will bend sufficiently to get around the stub ends of the wires). Then I nail up with the nail gun. 16mm brads are fine all round with shallows, but I am more generous with the 14 x 12s - four brads in the wedge and 19mm brads in the shoulders (plus, this year, 2 x 25mm 'on the tosh' down through the top bar at each shoulder). The 4 extras downwards are a trial this year on some of my big format frames and I will see if they improve the longevity or not (14 x 12s full of honey are heavy and have sometimes pulled apart if well 'glued' into the box or if dropped at all on a dodgy lug (usually outside the hive, I might add). So this may be a trade off between weakened lugs and loosened shoulders.

For shallows I have been known to use 14mm staples for both bottom bars in one go.

Some of my bottom bars are tight and some loose (seconds again!). I select a tight batch for the first bottom bar and use up any loose ones I come across, at the earliest opportunity.

Other tips are to snip off the corners of the foundation, if required, for an easier fit - particularly useful if the grooves don't quite line up (those seconds again!).

Certainly agree with Steve Dyer's points 2 and 3. It is definitely stronger cross-nailing bottom bars but it is not needed and a real bear to recycle the frames. IF you go for replacing frames rather than recycling, then it doesn't really matter a jot. Even 14 x 12 frames, with wax fitted, were less than £1.90each, this year, as I recall. But I don't buy 10 at a time!

RAB

 

[Steve Dyer]

BBKA Basic exam on 24th July - 11 pins, the three in the wedge go through the wire loops to help support the wax.

R2

and Hivemaker:

The loops are supposed to have the pins driven through them,but if you do it the way you suggest Steve...ie melt out the comb,what are you going to do next...

Having melted out combs one is left with "slum gum" to scrape out of the frame and chunks of messy stuff are left attached to wires that are very difficult to remove if the nails are through the loops. If they are outside the loops all the "muck and old wire" can be removed from the frame easily right by the solar leaving a frame ready to be scraped up clean.

In relation to R2's exam question I think this is a classic of where even examiners just accept old "lore" without asking "why?". There is no advantage in putting the nail through the loop, but you can quite see how an examiner glibly asks the question, and awards a mark to the person who gives the "right" answer, even though there is no justification for it being right.

 

[debzbees]

Thank you, It's really been helpful, now I'm wondering if there is a downside to plastic frames?

 

[onriver]

a tip I discovered, though I'm sure I'm not the first
Try a pizza cutter if you need to trim the foundation - much easier than a knife