Split or artificial swarm? When to do this. HELP!

[Widget]

Hi
this is my first winter of beekeeping and my main concern was that they survive. However, on a mild dry day a few weeks ago I opened my hive to put Apivar strips in. I had been planning to use oxalic acid but as we were not having cold weather to stop the queen from laying I followed the advice of other experienced beekeepers and used Apivar strips instead.

I was surprised when I opened the hive to count 11 or 12 seams of bees. They have also built a lot of comb between the frames and the crown board. I have a small eke in place for feeding fondant.

I am concerned that there are so many bees in the hive that they may swarm as soon as we get a few days of mild weather. I recall that last year it got so warm in February that I was wearing shorts! I am also aware that last year locally bees were swarming in March

Are my bees likely to swarm before there is any forage out there?

When I do have to take action to prevent swarming, should I make a split or carry out an artificial swarm procedure? I have been favouring the "Snelgrove II (modified) procedure as outlined by Wally Shaw in his book "An Apiary Guide to Swarm Prevention" as it seems the most straightforward method and doesn't require using a split board (whatever that is) or even a Snelgrove board. I also wouldn't need to find the queen for the initial manipulation which I would find difficult given the number of bees in there. Although I have bought a number of beekeeping boos I can find very little information on splitting hives in any of them.

Do I need to give the bees more room by adding a super to give them brood and a half? I am not keen to do this as it will make whatever manipulation I undertake to prevent swarming more difficult. I don't want to be opening my hive and pulling out frames at this time of the year but I also don't want my bees to abscond so if giving them more space until the weather is settled enough to carry out a full inspection helps I will do it.

I would appreciate any advice.

 

[Poly Hive]

Congratulations on having a good overwinterd hive.

All those bees you are looking at are on their last legs and your books will (hopefully) have told you this. They are Winter bees and so will die by mid to end of March roughly. The queen may or may not be laying up yet and they still have to get past the crossover point. which is the point at which the hatching bees are more numerous than the death rate.

When the swarming point is likely in your area I have no idea and hopefully someone more local will be along shortly but frankly, I think you are way ahead of yourself here.

As for books not covering "splitting" that's probably because they will most likely call it "making increase".

PH

 

[enrico]

Don't panic!!!!
All is well. Leave them alone. Listen to polyhive.
E

 

[drex]

As already said, relax. In Wally's pamphlet, before the bit you mention, he gives some good advice about swarm prevention. Read that and put it into action at the appropriate time. They might still swarm whatever you do. That's beekeeping.

 

[Swarm]

Splitting is a relatively simple procedure. When you see a decent amount of drones in your colony and before you see swarm cells, remove the queen and make up a small nuc with her. With plenty of fresh eggs, the colony will requeen themselves and you still have your old queen laying up comb in her nuc that can be used to strengthen the others until the new queen is up and running.
I have a Bulgarian friend who has always used this method.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Splitting is a relatively simple procedure. When you see a decent amount of drones in your colony and before you see swarm cells, remove the queen and make up a small nuc with her. With plenty of fresh eggs, the colony will requeen themselves and you still have your old queen laying up comb in her nuc that can be used to strengthen the others until the new queen is up and running.
I have a Bulgarian friend who has always used this method.

Does your Bulgarian friend thin the emergency cells?

 

[Ian123]

I would some given half the chance will throw swarms till there’s little left. A better option would be whilst keeping the colony together split the queen and brood and get them to raise a few cells and split out a couple of nucs once cells are capped. But as in many aspects of beekeeping there’s 50 ways to skin a cat

 

[Erichalfbee]

Some useful data on how honey bees choose larvae for emergency queens

Instead of nepotistically choosing super sister larvae it appears that workers preferentially select larvae from particular “royal” subfamilies that are rare in the overall worker population.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6040692/

 

[Millet]

Some useful data on how honey bees choose larvae for emergency queens

Instead of nepotistically choosing super sister larvae it appears that workers preferentially select larvae from particular “royal” subfamilies that are rare in the overall worker population.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6040692/

I have read more than i have ever read before in my life about bees and the swarming impulse takes some beating with mongrel x bees..F1 or F2 bees are controllable..but mongrels lol.. let them get on with it..as 50% of the time you are also wasting your time..every year i get swarm fever around June..the best thing i have found is Nuc the Queen and move..or buy new Queens and make more nucs from these horrible swarmy mongrels..
Here is to the 2018 Queens going into this season..

 

[Millet]

Buckfast imports till i die.

 

[Swarm]

Does your Bulgarian friend thin the emergency cells?

No and neither do I. He is a bit blunt but his explanation was 'bees lose queen, bees need to replace, why they swarm?'
I've tried it and I have to agree with him. I have a gorgeous, black beauty from the queen in my avatar, after one such split last year. I gave them a couple of frames of sealed brood from mam and they produced a nice crop.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have read more than i have ever read before in my life about bees and the swarming impulse takes some beating with mongrel x bees..F1 or F2 bees are controllable..but mongrels lol.. let them get on with it..as 50% of the time you are also wasting your time..every year i get swarm fever around June..the best thing i have found is Nuc the Queen and move..or buy new Queens and make more nucs from these horrible swarmy mongrels..
Here is to the 2018 Queens going into this season..

The article is about how honey bees ( any honey bees) choose particular larvae rather than their sibling larvae to make new queens. It’s really nothing to do with swarming impulse. I put the link up thinking some people might be interested. Not everything you learn has to have a practical application.

 

[Erichalfbee]

No and neither do I. He is a bit blunt but his explanation was 'bees lose queen, bees need to replace, why they swarm?'
I've tried it and I have to agree with him. I have a gorgeous, black beauty from the queen in my avatar, after one such split last year. I gave them a couple of frames of sealed brood from mam and they produced a nice crop.

Yes Wally Shaw doesn’t thin the emergency cells either. I tried his modified snelgrove a couple of times but didn’t dare not thin them.

 

[ShinySideUp]

After last year, when all the bees wanted to do was swarm and although I did my level best to prevent it I still ended up losing one and catching two more to increase my holding to five hives, I have decided that if they want to swarm this year then knock yourselves out. I don't want any more hives, I don't have the equipment to do any sort of meaningful swarm prevention, and I no longer want to try to prevent the bee's natural lifecyle from occurring. So if my neighbour calls me (he lives next to my bees, I live further away) and says they are making a noise (he is quite happy with the bees so is not complaining) I shall just take my dogs on a long walk and then remove excess queen cells the next day. I'm pretty sure that a commercial beekeeping establishment only makes a token effort to prevent swarming as with, say, 250 hives they are not going to do many of the Pagden, Snelgrove etc. methods as they would be just too time-consuming. In fact, I have no idea how people with large numbers of hives manage to contain swarms, especially if conditions are like last year.

I have many supers and will put them on very early to give the bees room, aside from that , I shall just trust to luck (and hope it is not my chimney they swarm to).

Stands back and awaits the swarm of indignation

 

[Poly Hive]

What are you meaning by "thin the cells"? Reduce the numbers or take a knife to the cell wall? It's a phrase that is ambiguous.

PH

 

[Erichalfbee]

What are you meaning by "thin the cells"? Reduce the numbers or take a knife to the cell wall? It's a phrase that is ambiguous.

PH

Is it?
I've never heard anybody taking a knife to the cells

 

[Newbeeneil]

After last year, when all the bees wanted to do was swarm

Really? I thought last year was pretty quiet, calls from people wanting swarms collected were at about 50% of 2018 levels in my area.

 

[Poly Hive]

I have actually. So define please.

Ph

 

[Ian123]

After last year, when all the bees wanted to do was swarm and although I did my level best to prevent it I still ended up losing one and catching two more to increase my holding to five hives, I have decided that if they want to swarm this year then knock yourselves out. I don't want any more hives, I don't have the equipment to do any sort of meaningful swarm prevention, and I no longer want to try to prevent the bee's natural lifecyle from occurring. So if my neighbour calls me (he lives next to my bees, I live further away) and says they are making a noise (he is quite happy with the bees so is not complaining) I shall just take my dogs on a long walk and then remove excess queen cells the next day. I'm pretty sure that a commercial beekeeping establishment only makes a token effort to prevent swarming as with, say, 250 hives they are not going to do many of the Pagden, Snelgrove etc. methods as they would be just too time-consuming. In fact, I have no idea how people with large numbers of hives manage to contain swarms, especially if conditions are like last year.

I have many supers and will put them on very early to give the bees room, aside from that , I shall just trust to luck (and hope it is not my chimney they swarm to).

Stands back and awaits the swarm of indignation

I often just knock down cells and add space if it’s later in the season or take a nuc out for the introduction of a cell to reduce numbers. Earlier in the season I like the nuc method of putting the queen in a small nuc and uniting later. As to your expanding numbers just unite it’s always good to have a couple of spares for winter but if you have to many now/April remove a five frame nuc advertise here and put your £200 to some more boxes. Any additional frames can be United to other hives. I’ve often heard beekeepers saying they have to many or not enough equipment. Yet many when you suggest squishing the worst queens/uniting can’t bring themselves to do it!!! Guess it’s just human nature.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Some useful data on how honey bees choose larvae for emergency queens

Instead of nepotistically choosing super sister larvae it appears that workers preferentially select larvae from particular “royal” subfamilies that are rare in the overall worker population.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6040692/

Interesting Dani.
Just a thought tho, if the bees choose the best larva to produce a queen with it would seem that by grafting we are reducing the pool of potential genes available to them. It seems we are better making them queenless and allowing them to choose THEN using the generated queen cells.
Just as I was getting my grafting kit sorted!