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Should I calculate mites before killing them

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Finman 

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In every place you may read that you should calculate mite dropping to see, is it necessary to kill them.

I am now convinved that there is no minimum limit to mite number.

If you have 3 mites in March alive, and they double every month, you have in September 300 mites.

If you have 20 mites, you will have 1300 mites in September.

Then you kill 99%. and in theory you have living mites

300 - --> 3

1300 --> 13 mites.


So, it seems to me that it is better to kill them and not calculate. At least they are easier to calculate after killing.
 

mrDoe 

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Hi Finman

I'm sure you know the idea behind only treating mites when they reach a certain level is to keep the related stress to the bees to a minimum. Ok sure, the mites themselves are a stress on the bees, but if you except that you will never completely eradicate the mite (that?s to say even if you got every one, within a couple of weeks you are likely to have them brought back into the hive by foraging bees) then the idea of IPM is to manage the population in a rational way.

Otherwise the eagle eyed, whenever they spot a single mite on their floor, mite board, or on a bee, will be treating every few weeks. Coupled with the fact some treatments can only be applied in certain conditions, means we need to understand and monitor what mite levels are in our hive and act appropriately when needed.

Otherwise we also risk the stress of unnecessarily treating healthy bees.



Peter
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Finman 

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then the idea of IPM is to manage the population in a rational way.

.. will be treating every few weeks.

means we need to understand and monitor what mite levels are in our hive and act appropriately when needed.

Otherwise we also risk the stress of unnecessarily treating healthy bees.
It must be unefficient treatment methods if you need continous counting and treaments.

I did not not understood the idea. Most in our country treat only once a year. Of course mite dead outs happens here.

.
 

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At our IPM talk last night the bee inspector said no treatment is 100% effective in a normal hive. You will do better using a knock down treatment on a swarm or shook swarm though. Apiguard can be as bad as 50% if done at the wrong temperature. The CSL has produced mite build up graphs which indicate from as little as 20 mites you can reach endemic numbers in 180 days(I'll have to look up exact figures) so that if you treat once a year, in the UK at least, you will not have strong colonies, if any.

Maybe a shorter season means you can get away with one treatment in your area? But as you say, you do get dead outs.


Peter
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I killed my first mite hive 1982. I am not worry about my mites. And now oxalic acid is splended.

In Finland mite advices are very simple. No law problems, no balance problems, no poisoning. Those who cannot handle mites , have gived up long time ago. Killing mites is not laboratory work.

We have not here wise inspectors. Every one must manage with themselves.
 
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Finman 

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Maybe a shorter season means ....
Yes it does. 2 years ago we have 2 months longer brood season and it developed a bad varroa situation in whole country.

I saw extra much mites in drone brood in the middle or summer but I did not realize that I should handle mites in August. Now I know the indicator.

Things happens and it is not wise to live emergency situation if something happens once in 10 years.
 

mrDoe 

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I envy your climatic situation.

Here in the UK though, I'd not want UK beekeepers thinking a once yearly Varroa treatment is the way to go; we do need to monitor mite levels and treat when required.


Peter
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I used Thymol when the supers came off and OA at new year.

Sould I be thinking I may need to sugar dust as well at some point before the main flow finishes?
 

Finman 

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Sould I be thinking I may need to sugar dust as well at some point before the main flow finishes?

Remember, 80% of mites are under caps. Vain to spoil main yield.

And you should allready have in Uk system/experience how you play with varroa. No need to invent it once a month.

I used Thymol when the supers came off and OA at new year.
That should be enough. Formic acid is another alternative to thymol.
.
 
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mrDoe 

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The inspector said last night, that he had treated with Apiguard in August and oxalic in early January, but he is still getting a daily drop count of enough mites to make him treat in the end of Feb early March with half a measure of Apiguard. He said you'd be surprised the knock down you will get even at the lower than recommended temperature. He expect a 50% kill which will then tied him over until after the spring flows.

If you'd looked at his charts for mite build up you would have seen that if your treatment is less than 95% effective the mite can build back up again in a matter of a couple of months.

The thing to do is to monitor your average daily drop.
 

Finman 

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The inspector said last night, that he had treated with Apiguard in August and oxalic in early January, but he is still getting a daily drop count of enough mites .
The point is that when you use oxalic acid, mites will drop next 4-5 weeks.

.
Finnish beekeeping specialist Ari Seppälä calculated from Finnish
varroa trickling research following lag time :

After
cure ---- rate of all falled
1 week ---- 54 %
2 week ---- 20 %
3 week -----13 %
4 week ------8 %
5 week ------5 %

A finnish researcher Seppo Korpela has calculated during many years mites' drop

year 2000 altogether 34468 falled mites

1-2 weeks 96%
3-4. weeks 2,4 %

v. 2004 ... 10730 mites:

1-2 weeks 98 %
3-4 weeks 2 %

Y 2005.... 12270 mites

1-2 weeks 96 %
3-4 weeks 4 %
 
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mrDoe 

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True, of course. But it will only be 100% effective if there was no brood when you treated, that may be the case where you are, but it is not always the case here in the UK, depending on what strain of bee you keep.

By your own figures in the last three examples there is a 96% to 98% drop in the first two weeks, maybe that 2% to 6% after two weeks is more than just late drop, maybe some of that is drop from unaffected mites. after all the 100% total drop stated is just the 100% of those that did drop. If your application was poor you might only have hit 70% of the true mite load and think you've got all of them.

Look, the inspectors comments are just as I recalled them, I might have made an error in my recollection, but my point is if you are in the UK you cannot simply treat once a year with Apiguard and/or Oxalic and think that’s ok until next year. It may be the case you can where you are, I have no idea, but if you do in the UK and your bees are in conventional hives you can expect poor results.



Peter
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Finman 

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Look, the inspectors comments are just as I recalled them, I might have made an error in my recollection, but my point is if you are in the UK you cannot simply treat once a year with Apiguard and/or Oxalic and think that’s ok until next year.
You look. It is still January and inspector's mites are dropping still. So simple, even in UK.

I am not UK and I know that you come 10 years after another Europe.
I just try to help your with your old fashion national system, and with your national native mongrels. Other world has gived up their mongrels times ago. I have learned nothing in UK bee forum. I have no problem with bees or mites.

There is nowhere 100% drop like you say. Awfull to depate with you pdcambs. First you don't know and then you know everything.

Don't be too after smart.
 
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Hivemaker. 

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We often have hives here that do not stop brooding all winter,so this does not help at all. Also regards needing treatment during summer depends on where you are and the density of beekeepers/hives in that area regarding reinfestation,in some remote area you may reduce the mite load to very low numbers and not need to treat until late summer/autumn.but in more populated area's and due to robbing from colonys that may be weak,due to not being treated,and escaped swarms. The mite load can build again fast.so you need to monitor in some fashion for these reasons,and deal with accordingly.
 

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We often have hives here that do not stop brooding all winter,so this does not help at all. .
You know that and you play the system with that knowledge.
I understant it too very well. Vain to depate. We all adapt knowledge into our systems.

I use southern knowledge to my beekeeping and I never cry that it is so different. Do as your brains say.

Every day I may read that it is so different. Stupid gang.
 

Hivemaker. 

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So what is the actual point of a forum to debate anything if its not worth debating in the first place.I think the main reason is for new beekeepers to get an idea about these issues.
 

mrDoe 

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So what is the actual point of a forum to debate anything if its not worth debating in the first place.I think the main reason is for new beekeepers to get an idea about these issues.

Here, here

All I DON'T want, is for UK beginners to listen to advice that they can treat once and forget about it.

As for being draged into a slanging match, no thank you, I'll withdraw and let everyone read the thread for themselves and take from it what they wish.
 

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if its not worth debating in the first place.I.

I think that it is not worth debating that Finland and England is different.
Very seldom I use Finnish researches because we don't have such.
It seems that UK has either. So what we use? And we must adapt it as good as we can. Life teaches.

You speak much about your inspectors and I think that they are ordinary beekeepers with their own believes.
 

Finman 

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All I DON'T want, is for UK beginners to listen to advice that they can treat once and forget about it.

.
Yes yes . Two days ago you wrote that oxalic acid is fatal: cancer, kidneys, brains, bones, liver...
Ruary writes that is is against the law.

Who told that beekeeper eate the acid and then mites die.


What ever. :)
 

Hivemaker. 

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I don't fancy a slanging match either,so will also withdraw.not worth the effort,for some little mites.
 
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