Safety of calcium chloride as a honey desiccant - any chemists out there?

[beebopper]

I don’t think so. That would be ‘tell-tale’ silica gel.

Calcium chloride is deliquescent, not just hygroscopic. I expect it is actually the amorphous form in fused lumps - it needs to be heated very strongly to rid the hydrated crystals of water. It may generate hydrogen chloride gas when still in the solid state, but when it dissolves in its own collected water, this would cease. But the reaction providing this is a bit flawed. It shows calcium hydrxoxide as product - which is basic and will react with acids. The difference is possibly that this can occur until the hydrogen chloride gas (a covalent compound) dissolves in water.

It will, when a fully saturated solution in an enclosed space, provide a constant humidity above with a relative humidity of 35% at 20 Celsius.

Spills are the most nuisance as the solution is quite corrosive. It is still used for ballasting pneumatic wheels due to the density of a concentrated
solution. But any leaks will soon result in corroded wheel rims.

OMG - is this relevant?

E grade I am afraid. Please see me and repeat. Hand in first thing Monday;
Whoops sorry thought I was back at school for a second there.

 

[beebopper]

Last summer I wrote to the editor of BBKA News in reply to Wally Shaw's 'Readers' Questions'.
"Dear Editor
Wally Shaw (Harvesting unsealed honey, BBKA News, July 2018) suggests using a dehumidifier in a small reasonably air-tight room to reduce the water content of unripe honey in the comb to below 20%. I use a simpler method: my warming cabinet accommodates two 30lb honey buckets. In the cabinet I place two small trays of calcium chloride crystals - these are widely available to reduce humidity in boats and caravans over winter. I set the temperature at 35C for several days and find the percentage water content falls from say 21% to 18%. Check that the trays are not overflowing with absorbed water".

I hoped my letter would be published but not unreasonably she checked the safety of CaCl2 with an 'expert'. The editor replied with the 'expert's opinion:

"I have taken some advice on your idea from someone who is more expert in
this than me. And the response I got was:

"Calcium chloride is used widely as a desiccant, but it does get warm when it
absorbs water and it can corrode zinc and steel and can give off gases,
which can irritate the respiratory tract, skin and eyes. We consume it in a
variety of ways though and it is not harmful in that respect (indeed, it is
one of those essential substances that we need to keep us healthy), but I
guess, how much is used, whether it gets very hot and whether it is placed
in metals that it could react with - or what else is in the room - might,
potentially be a problem. Similarly, if it is hot and the beekeeper does not
realise and touches it, the skin contact could cause burns or irritation.
Similarly, if splashed into the eye - nasty!!! I have always used the powder
in glass vessels, but Giles does not mention heat or what his trays and
cabinet are made of - in fact he adds heat. In a lab setting, I would
usually wear gloves as a norm, so would not have any skin irritation
problems".

"So I am sure you will understand, I feel very hesitant about recommending
your method in BBKA News".

My reply was:

"Very sensible of you to check the safety profile of calcium chloride - but I think your expert’s opinion is OTT!
I realise you cannot publish my letter but allow me to make a few points:
1. The crystals absorb moisture imperceptibly slowly. There is no question of creating chemical heat. Burns due to touching the hot container are therefore impossible
2. Skin contact can cause irritation by desiccating the skin - not by a chemical burn
3. “and can give off gases” - then why is it widely used in damp cupboards, boats and caravans?
4. Yes it can irritate the eyes - take precautions known to us all.

Your expert “always uses the powder in glass vessels”. He/she leads a sheltered life - spare a thought for highway operatives using it as a road de-icer or swimming pool attendants using it to harden the water. By-the-by, calcium chloride used as a dessicant is in crystal form, not powder.

Just in case you have a damp cupboard at home I attach the stuff I buy (read Product Info) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kontrol-Krystals-2-5Kilo-Refill-Moisture/dp/B01846ZFL0/ref=sr_1_3?
ie=UTF8&qid=1531924439&sr=8-3&keywords=kontrol+krystals".

And I followed up with:

"Hello Editor, sorry to bother you again!
I’ve been revising memories of A level chemistry (1959). Calcium chloride with water does not yield “gases”.
CaCl2 + H20 = CaO +2HCL. No gas, let alone gases, at all!!!
Could your ‘expert’ please enlighten me?"

The editor sent my response to the 'expert' for comment but unfortunately he/she has not replied. I'm sure there must be a few chemists on the Forum. I'd be grateful for your opinion on the safety of a small tray containing half a cup of CaCl2 in a warming cabinet.

Tell there expert to contact me please.
This is nonsense.

 

[beebopper]

'Thymol is of no use against Nosema whether prophylactically or otherwise'

OK, her comments about it's use as a nosema treatment not being authorised is true, but that doesn't excuse her making misleading/untrue statements - she's the chair of the BBKA FFS!

Bloody scary isn't it.

 

[beebopper]

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1184.html

CaCl2 is routinely used in chemistry laboratories in drying tubes to prevent water vapour getting into water sensitive reactions. I think if it gave of any gas (HCl) then it wouldn't be much use as a drying agent.

Correct. A grade.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Tell there expert to contact me please.
This is nonsense.

I don't think the BBKA consult 'real' experts (unless you count those who claim themselves to be 'master' beekeepers of the paper framing variety) they just use that term as stick to beat down any dissent from the great unwashed.

 

[beebopper]

I don't think the BBKA consult 'real' experts (unless you count those who claim themselves to be 'master' beekeepers of the paper framing variety) they just use that term as stick to beat down any dissent from the great unwashed.

 

[Amari]

Where do you get this from. Conc (pure) HCl is a liquid.

CaCl2 use is completely safe and stable - as long as you do not contaminate your honey I see not problems with this.
It does produce allot of heat if dissolved in a small volume of water (due to water bonding with the ions resulting in heat being generated). Be careful when disposing of it therefore - use large volume of water and add slowly before going down sink.
Cleapss Hazcard 19A (http://science.cleapss.org.uk/Whats-New/hazcards/).
Cannot see where people get this fictional chemistry from. Too much inappropriate and misunderstanding of google searches I suspect (well I know but was trying to be polite).[/QUOT

Many thanks for that authoritative reply Beebopper -I will forward to the editor. Thanks for all the replies folks.

 

[Hachi]

...and very likely is... if it has anything to do with beekeeping pre 1947.

Another coffee spitting over the keyboard moment

 

[oliver90owner]

QUOTE=beebopper;651517]Where do you get this from. Conc (pure) HCl is a liquid.


It is this person who needs some chemistry education. Hydrogen Chloride is a GAS. It is NOT a liquid at ambient temperature! It is a covalent compound and, as such, is unable to dissociate into ions.

I just checked wiki for its boiling point It is -85 Celsius!

Only when it dissolves in water - ie in aqueous solution - it forms HYDROCHLORIC ACID.

Obviously there will be water vapour in the atmosphere above honey, but I doubt that much, if any hydrogen chloride can be produced for the simple reason that Calcium oxide is basic and any free water would convert the hydogen chloride to hydrochloric acid which would then react with the base. There is the added problem that if that reaction occurs, then the calcium chloride (the drying agent) is no longer there!

And, OMG, there is far more calcium chloride used in ballasted tyres around the world than the small amount being used as a desiccant in laboratory experiments.

The effective way to trap water vapour from experiments, in my days of checking for labile tritium, was to collect any water in the gas stream by freezing. -196 Celsius did the job quite adequately and was the standard method employed. Not quite like the basic school classroom experiments, eh?

I think it is you who needs to go back to school. In my day, you would likely be stood in the corner wearing the dunce’s hat.

 

[beebopper]

QUOTE=beebopper;651517]Where do you get this from. Conc (pure) HCl is a liquid.


It is this person who needs some chemistry education. Hydrogen Chloride is a GAS. It is NOT a liquid at ambient temperature! It is a covalent compound and, as such, is unable to dissociate into ions.

I just checked wiki for its boiling point It is -85 Celsius!

Only when it dissolves in water - ie in aqueous solution - it forms HYDROCHLORIC ACID.

Obviously there will be water vapour in the atmosphere above honey, but I doubt that much, if any hydrogen chloride can be produced for the simple reason that Calcium oxide is basic and any free water would convert the hydogen chloride to hydrochloric acid which would then react with the base. There is the added problem that if that reaction occurs, then the calcium chloride (the drying agent) is no longer there!

And, OMG, there is far more calcium chloride used in ballasted tyres around the world than the small amount being used as a desiccant in laboratory experiments.

The effective way to trap water vapour from experiments, in my days of checking for labile tritium, was to collect any water in the gas stream by freezing. -196 Celsius did the job quite adequately and was the standard method employed. Not quite like the basic school classroom experiments, eh?

I think it is you who needs to go back to school. In my day, you would likely be stood in the corner wearing the dunce’s hat.

You believe what you like.

 

[oliver90owner]

You believe what you like.

I didn’t get my BSc thinking that HCl was ionic, for a start. Facts, not hairy fairy carp like you churn out. If your beekeeping is on a par with your chemistry, there would be little wonder if you struggle to keep them.

 

[Curley]

Where do you get this from. Conc (pure) HCl is a liquid.

CaCl2 use is completely safe and stable - as long as you do not contaminate your honey I see not problems with this.
It does produce allot of heat if dissolved in a small volume of water (due to water bonding with the ions resulting in heat being generated). Be careful when disposing of it therefore - use large volume of water and add slowly before going down sink.
Cleapss Hazcard 19A (http://science.cleapss.org.uk/Whats-New/hazcards/).

Cannot see where people get this fictional chemistry from. Too much inappropriate and misunderstanding of google searches I suspect (well I know but was trying to be polite).

Beebopper - A few comments on your unpleasant, unhelpful and inaccurate little series of posts.

Pure HCl is a gas and properly called hydrogen chloride - it is a molecular compound which reacts with water to form hydrochloric acid. Which is a liquid. Perhaps this is the cause of your confusion? In the gaseous form it is highly soluble and is unlikely to be released in any use of Calcium Chloride.

Anhydrous Calcium Chloride is an irritant. Hydrated Calcium Chloride is entirely safe but would be no use as a desiccant.

You quote a link to a school safety site - this is what the link YOU provided (but clearly haven't read properly) says about Anhydrous Calcium Chloride:-

Calcium chloride Anhydrous / hydrated solid & conc.
solution (if 0.9M or more) IRRITANT
WARNING: causes skin and serious eye irritation and may cause
respiratory irritation. Anhydrous calcium chloride can cause water
to boil; often used as a drying agent. Approved food additive E509


Amari - take Beebopper's 'authoritative' response with a large pinch of salt.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But But.......
He's a chemistry teacher!!

 

[Curley]

Politeness (and forum rules) prevent me from saying what I think he is!

 

[For want of a better word]

But But.......
He's a chemistry teacher!!

Perhaps an old school Alchemist?

You should invite him to you next parish performance of Macbeth!

Can see you sitting around the cauldron with a few of the forum trolls* giving it a good old winter stir!!!!

*whitches then!

 

[Amari]

Last summer I wrote to the editor of BBKA News in reply to Wally Shaw's 'Readers' Questions'.
"Dear Editor
Wally Shaw (Harvesting unsealed honey, BBKA News, July 2018) suggests using a dehumidifier in a small reasonably air-tight room to reduce the water content of unripe honey in the comb to below 20%. I use a simpler method: my warming cabinet accommodates two 30lb honey buckets. In the cabinet I place two small trays of calcium chloride crystals - these are widely available to reduce humidity in boats and caravans over winter. I set the temperature at 35C for several days and find the percentage water content falls from say 21% to 18%. Check that the trays are not overflowing with absorbed water".

I hoped my letter would be published but not unreasonably she checked the safety of CaCl2 with an 'expert'. The editor replied with the 'expert's opinion:

"I have taken some advice on your idea from someone who is more expert in
this than me. And the response I got was:

"Calcium chloride is used widely as a desiccant, but it does get warm when it
absorbs water and it can corrode zinc and steel and can give off gases,
which can irritate the respiratory tract, skin and eyes. We consume it in a
variety of ways though and it is not harmful in that respect (indeed, it is
one of those essential substances that we need to keep us healthy), but I
guess, how much is used, whether it gets very hot and whether it is placed
in metals that it could react with - or what else is in the room - might,
potentially be a problem. Similarly, if it is hot and the beekeeper does not
realise and touches it, the skin contact could cause burns or irritation.
Similarly, if splashed into the eye - nasty!!! I have always used the powder
in glass vessels, but Giles does not mention heat or what his trays and
cabinet are made of - in fact he adds heat. In a lab setting, I would
usually wear gloves as a norm, so would not have any skin irritation
problems".

"So I am sure you will understand, I feel very hesitant about recommending
your method in BBKA News".

My reply was:

"Very sensible of you to check the safety profile of calcium chloride - but I think your expert’s opinion is OTT!
I realise you cannot publish my letter but allow me to make a few points:
1. The crystals absorb moisture imperceptibly slowly. There is no question of creating chemical heat. Burns due to touching the hot container are therefore impossible
2. Skin contact can cause irritation by desiccating the skin - not by a chemical burn
3. “and can give off gases” - then why is it widely used in damp cupboards, boats and caravans?
4. Yes it can irritate the eyes - take precautions known to us all.

Your expert “always uses the powder in glass vessels”. He/she leads a sheltered life - spare a thought for highway operatives using it as a road de-icer or swimming pool attendants using it to harden the water. By-the-by, calcium chloride used as a dessicant is in crystal form, not powder.

Just in case you have a damp cupboard at home I attach the stuff I buy (read Product Info) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kontrol-Krystals-2-5Kilo-Refill-Moisture/dp/B01846ZFL0/ref=sr_1_3?
ie=UTF8&qid=1531924439&sr=8-3&keywords=kontrol+krystals".

And I followed up with:

"Hello Editor, sorry to bother you again!
I’ve been revising memories of A level chemistry (1959). Calcium chloride with water does not yield “gases”.
CaCl2 + H20 = CaO +2HCL. No gas, let alone gases, at all!!!
Could your ‘expert’ please enlighten me?"

The editor sent my response to the 'expert' for comment but unfortunately he/she has not replied. I'm sure there must be a few chemists on the Forum. I'd be grateful for your opinion on the safety of a small tray containing half a cup of CaCl2 in a warming cabinet.

To update my thoughts:
I often used CaCl2 throughout 2019 if my extracted honey was above 20% water (never more than 21-22% and it always crystallised quickly in the honey buckets).
However when I came to warm the honey to prepare soft-set I often had the problem of finding a glutinous scum on the surface of the honey in the honey buckets after they'd had 48 hours in the warming cabinet @ 35C with CaCl2 in a container at the bottom of the cabinet.
This year I have been less greedy in extracting uncapped honey and tested with my refractometer before extracting. Average of pooled honey = 18%. (lots of OSR here and many frames only half capped and below 20%).
I have not used CaCl2 this year and not had the glutinous scum.
Conclusion: CaCl2 probably caused a layer of super-dry honey = scum so not advised.

 

[Murox]

Isnt it used in the lids of fancy biscuit tins too?

I think thats silica gel - you can get that in kilo bags as well - try that for absorbing moisture from honey.

 

[Speybee]

Is calcium chloride not used in tinned food such as a Lentils and other legumes?
Next time you are in a Tesco store, have a wee look at a can of Tesco own brand tinned Green lentils and you will see Calcium chloride on the label.
Apparently it’s used for cosmetic purposes to stop the lentils bursting and going mushy.
It is used to keep the food firm.

 

[Amari]

To update my thoughts:
I often used CaCl2 throughout 2019 if my extracted honey was above 20% water (never more than 21-22% and it always crystallised quickly in the honey buckets).
However when I came to warm the honey to prepare soft-set I often had the problem of finding a glutinous scum on the surface of the honey in the honey buckets after they'd had 48 hours in the warming cabinet @ 35C with CaCl2 in a container at the bottom of the cabinet.
This year I have been less greedy in extracting uncapped honey and tested with my refractometer before extracting. Average of pooled honey = 18%. (lots of OSR here and many frames only half capped and below 20%).
I have not used CaCl2 this year and not had the glutinous scum.
Conclusion: CaCl2 probably caused a layer of super-dry honey = scum so not advised.

Contrary to what I said above I used CaCl2 on another batch of honey last week - solid bucket honey warmed at 35C for 24 hours prior to preparing soft-set. Again there was a layer of scum. I got rid of this easily by laying on cling film then removing it.
Worked a treat

 

[Amari]

Contrary to what I said above I used CaCl2 on another batch of honey last week - solid bucket honey warmed at 35C for 24 hours prior to preparing soft-set. Again there was a layer of scum. I got rid of this easily by laying on cling film then removing it.
Worked a treat

From another thread: Huge difference in water content