Roof vents or not

[Finman]

.
If you have 40 mm poly box wall, you need in cover over 50 mm poly insulation.
25 mm insulation is cooler than walls and it condensates moisture.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I somehow suspect as well that a lot who have voted have misunderstood what roof vents are - rather than those two piddling little holes under the metal of the roof which ARE roof vents I think many are talking of the feeder holes in the crown board which some (especially the BBKA 'experts') insist on calling ventilation holes.

 

[pargyle]

I somehow suspect as well that a lot who have voted have misunderstood what roof vents are - rather than those two piddling little holes under the metal of the roof which ARE roof vents I think many are talking of the feeder holes in the crown board which some (especially the BBKA 'experts') insist on calling ventilation holes.

I think there is so much misunderstood in beekeeping circles ... very little thinking and an awful lot of 'do as I did and what my mentor was told in 1939 and passed on to me....'

If I ever hear one more time when the word insulation is mentioned 'it's damp that kills bees, not cold' I think I will explode ... matched only by 'well it's always worked for me !".

The world has moved on in just about every other branch of agriculture, hobbies and even technology and yet there seems to be this self destructive streak running through beekeeping circles that keeps much of the craft stuck well and truly somewhere between the two world wars.

 

[Jambo]

I just wondered what others do 'cos I can't sort the wheat from the chaff so many are the opinions. It seems to me that since I've got the theoretical basics of beekeeping and a summers practical experience I might as well do my own thing and based on what I have learned so far just hope I've got it right.

Also in my first year and sympathise with this! Also the fact that hive manufacturers make equipment with apparent top ventilation is misleading, as you've remarked.

I think another part of the problem is that bees will tend to survive most of the mistakes we make. And then if we use survival as the only measure of success, we can find justification for any approach to beekeeping

 

[ShinySideUp]

.
If you have 40 mm poly box wall, you need in cover over 50 mm poly insulation.
25 mm insulation is cooler than walls and it condensates moisture.

No, I'm putting the insulation inside the cedar hive roof although I might put a piece on top of the nuc too.

 

[user 6228]

I think there is so much misunderstood in beekeeping circles ... very little thinking and an awful lot of 'do as I did and what my mentor was told in 1939 and passed on to me....'

If I ever hear one more time when the word insulation is mentioned 'it's damp that kills bees, not cold' I think I will explode ... matched only by 'well it's always worked for me !".

The world has moved on in just about every other branch of agriculture, hobbies and even technology and yet there seems to be this self destructive streak running through beekeeping circles that keeps much of the craft stuck well and truly somewhere between the two world wars.

THis why i've gone to alot of effort to understand the history and drivers of thinking around insulation and ventilation. There is a sort of weird double think of single skin hives with top vents yet the professed need to shelter, stack hives together or use nucs.... As though bees simultaneously need and dont need lower conductance shelter. This is all put together in lecture i've just recently done for Bridgend and Lyndhurst BKA's called "The Honeybee and Mosquito: 160+ years of the Insulation/ventilation debate." In this I cover the opinions, research and social pressures from Langstroth to present day. I cover the changing opinions of beekeeping Authors such as Everett Phillips, Farrar, Manley, Cheshire, Vernon, Wedmore. as well as the Ventilation engineering of P.F. Linden and Lane-Serff

 

[Madge]

... But when it gets really hot and you have poly hives then by God it helps them enormously to keep the hive at the temperature they want by allowing a through draft of air. ....

In a highly insulated hive like a poly the bees can more easily maintain a steady temperature whatever the outside temperature. You don’t need to add vents unless you’re moving them.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[For want of a better word]

In a highly insulated hive like a poly the bees can more easily maintain a steady temperature whatever the outside temperature. You don’t need to add vents unless you’re moving them.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I see that Paynes the Brighton manufacturers of modified polly fish boxes now produce a travel screen to fit on their polly nuc... essential on the standard national 6 frame box on a warm day ... and absolutely essential when using the giant 14x12 framed boxes!
( TIP : remove the top feeder and the pollyacrylic clear sheet before fitting travel screen)


Yeghes da

 

[Poly Hive]

I think there is so much misunderstood in beekeeping circles ... very little thinking and an awful lot of 'do as I did and what my mentor was told in 1939 and passed on to me....'

If I ever hear one more time when the word insulation is mentioned 'it's damp that kills bees, not cold' I think I will explode ... matched only by 'well it's always worked for me !".

The world has moved on in just about every other branch of agriculture, hobbies and even technology and yet there seems to be this self destructive streak running through beekeeping circles that keeps much of the craft stuck well and truly somewhere between the two world wars.

So if it is not damp that exacerbates the conditions the colony is trying to thrive in what is the cause of death?

PH

 

[Swarm]

Is a vented roof above a sealed box a problem? No, it's much the same as a house loft and ventilation tiles but the loft hatch is shut. Beekeepers used to use a quilt, no holes in that. The problem is the crown board design and selling one piece of equipment to do three jobs and none of them really well.
However, I know far too many beekeepers who run their colonies uninsulated and with those porter holes open and their colonies thrive. I've done the same myself in the past, even during the extreme temps of 2010. The bees did really well that Winter and just as well as any insulated offering they've had since. What is the ideal set up? I can't speak bee so I don't know but the last thing I would do is preach to these beekeepers or label them, some have been living and breathing bees all their lives, even generations.

 

[user 6228]

if you have a wooden roof you should vent the space between the crown board(or ceiling) and the roof.
This is to protect the roof structure. Not a lot to do with the inhabitant comfort/stress.
What you do with crown board or ceiling is relavent to the inhabitants environment.

 

[Swarm]

What you do with crown board or ceiling is relavent to the inhabitants environment.

It may be but whether the difference has any relevance to the well being of the colony is far less certain as they seem to thrive in so many different situations.

 

[Poly Hive]

They do indeed Swarm but the question is how to help them thrive BETTER.

PH

 

[pargyle]

It may be but whether the difference has any relevance to the well being of the colony is far less certain as they seem to thrive in so many different situations.

I, like you Steve, don't speak Bee - although on many occasions I wish I could ! But, I know from my poly boxed colonies that they seal every tiny gap around the crownboard with propolis - within minutes it's stuck down and clearly airtight. I have seen a hive (not one of mine I would add) with the two porter escape holes left open and the bees have built a mass of waxopolis across the holes so - whilst I can't speak bee I think they might be trying to tell us something in their own way ?

I'm quite aware that bees will survive just about anything we throw at them .. I can even understand the premise that cold hives in winter could kill off a lot of bees -possibly those that don't deserve to survive - and leave a smaller stronger colony. A colony that, in spring, would then react very quickly to increase numbers ... The risk (as I see it) is that you could end up with a colony so badly depleted that it does not have sufficient mass to survive and dies out when it could be a survivor and viable colony.

I find it quite gratifying when I peep in through clear crownboards on my hives and see bees spread about the hive and even in the depth of winter you can feel the warmth on the crownboards. I'm very much live and let live - everyone has their own way of doing things in beekeeping but I would always encourage any beekeeper (and new ones in particular) to stick a slab or two of Kingspan on top of the crownboard... it just makes so much more sense.

 

[Swarm]

I understand PH and my hives are a good mixture with my preference being solid crown board and an abelo poly roof. That's my preference but I also have deep wooden roofs with 50mm insulation and standard wooden roofs with no insulation and good or average colonies in either one of them, so who knows what the bees prefer. I've even brought some old cedar boxes back into service because the same applies, the bees don't suddenly start to struggle.

 

[Millet]

I understand PH and my hives are a good mixture with my preference being solid crown board and an abelo poly roof. That's my preference but I also have deep wooden roofs with 50mm insulation and standard wooden roofs with no insulation and good or average colonies in either one of them, so who knows what the bees prefer. I've even brought some old cedar boxes back into service because the same applies, the bees don't suddenly start to struggle.

With that set up on open mesh floors do you leave the inspection tray out all of the time other than for inspection purposes.

 

[Swarm]

Inspection boards out. My UFE's are open mesh but a much reduced area 10"x 9"of mesh, not the full floor.

 

[Millet]

Inspection boards out. My UFE's are open mesh but a much reduced area 10"x 9"of mesh, not the full floor.

Cheers.
Another Steve.

 

[DanBee]

I have seen a hive (not one of mine I would add) with the two porter escape holes left open and the bees have built a mass of waxopolis across the holes...

I've never seen this, and I see quite a few different colonies, equipment, and management styles. Not saying you didn't see it, but that it is not a common occurrence IME. Do you recall what the time of year was, the other ventilation present at floor/entrance, and the general exposure of the site?

Some of our colonies will build extensive propolis curtains behind an open or part-open entrance slot, yet build no curtains at the top. Leave a feed hole open on a crown board, and they will do nothing to reduce it. Leave a piece of perforated gauze over the feed hole and they will propolise it completely, take that propolised gauze away and they do nothing to re-seal the feed hole. Leave a clean piece of perforated gauze on top of the crown board (but not obscuring the feed hole) and they will often propolise it completely to the wood beneath. The gauze on the inside of roof vents is never propolised, despite being entirely accessible and the same material as that which they will propolise completely if left over a feed hole or on top of a crown board. They are all on solid floors, open feed holes, roof vents.

I conclude from this that the bees are not propolising to control ventilation, but are exhibiting the behaviour of propolising spaces smaller than bee space (i.e. the perforations in the gauze) when encountered. Gauze over a feed hole or lying on a crown board is just a beespace or so above frequently traversed top bars and hence probably regularly patrolled and inspected; gauze over a roof vent is remote, possible rarely patrolled and often apparently left to the earwigs to look after

However if the bees had any inclination towards reducing the airflow through the roof ventilation, they would be more than capable of repeating the same propolising on the gauze inside the vents (they do not) or indeed of reducing or sealing the feed hole in the crown board with propolis/wax curtains (they do not). Yet they freely build partial or complete propolis curtains across the entrance.

It doesn't appear to have an easy answer. It would be easier if they were observed to routinely part-close feed hole apertures or roof vents, that way we would observe them managing the airflow to their desired level. With no such airflow management, are the bees failing to control top ventilation through some failure of instinct or decision, or are they choosing to leave it open?

 

[Swarm]

I've never seen this, and I see quite a few different colonies, equipment, and management styles. Not saying you didn't see it, but that it is not a common occurrence IME. Do you recall what the time of year was, the other ventilation present at floor/entrance, and the general exposure of the site?

Some of our colonies will build extensive propolis curtains behind an open or part-open entrance slot, yet build no curtains at the top. Leave a feed hole open on a crown board, and they will do nothing to reduce it. Leave a piece of perforated gauze over the feed hole and they will propolise it completely, take that propolised gauze away and they do nothing to re-seal the feed hole. Leave a clean piece of perforated gauze on top of the crown board (but not obscuring the feed hole) and they will often propolise it completely to the wood beneath. The gauze on the inside of roof vents is never propolised, despite being entirely accessible and the same material as that which they will propolise completely if left over a feed hole or on top of a crown board. They are all on solid floors, open feed holes, roof vents.

I conclude from this that the bees are not propolising to control ventilation, but are exhibiting the behaviour of propolising spaces smaller than bee space (i.e. the perforations in the gauze) when encountered. Gauze over a feed hole or lying on a crown board is just a beespace or so above frequently traversed top bars and hence probably regularly patrolled and inspected; gauze over a roof vent is remote, possible rarely patrolled and often apparently left to the earwigs to look after

However if the bees had any inclination towards reducing the airflow through the roof ventilation, they would be more than capable of repeating the same propolising on the gauze inside the vents (they do not) or indeed of reducing or sealing the feed hole in the crown board with propolis/wax curtains (they do not). Yet they freely build partial or complete propolis curtains across the entrance.

It doesn't appear to have an easy answer. It would be easier if they were observed to routinely part-close feed hole apertures or roof vents, that way we would observe them managing the airflow to their desired level. With no such airflow management, are the bees failing to control top ventilation through some failure of instinct or decision, or are they choosing to leave it open?

Never seen the bees seal feeder holes. I have seen them start to build a bit of comb up through these holes and some beekeepers use this as an indication to add a super. I think the tendency is to create an environment that we consider suitable, the problem is we are not bees but humans.
When left to find their own homes they certainly don't follow many of these mantras.