Requeening advice

[jeff33]

Good evening all,
I have a hive currently superceding but I don't want to keep that line. From experience what is the acceptance rate if I requeen directly by removing the old one and destroying all cells on a supercedure scenario? I intend to destroy queen cells an leave queenless for 24h or until they can't raise cells anymore before introducing the usual way. Unfortunately, I don't have enough brood to do a nuc. Thanks

 

[oliver90owner]

You have six hives and are unable to make up one nuc? Tell us another...

 

[jeff33]

I didn't update my details this year. To cut the story short, I have only 1 hive left and have already made a split with it to increase.

 

[Eyeman]

You can requeen a full size hive using a mated queen- you just need to take it slowly. Your talk about supercedure- how can you be sure? Could it not be swarm preparation?
You should go out any buy yourself an empty nuc ASAP- they are very useful.
I wouldn't try and introduce a new mated queen at this early stage as the colony's likely to be in 'swarm fever'. You need to let them get over this swarming impulse. With only one hive I would remove the old queen and shake all combs and remove any capped queen cells- leave the uncapped queen cells. One week later go back and remove all the queen cells- the colony will now be hoplessly queenless.
Make yourself a 'push-in-cage' brush bees off a frame of 'just-about-to-emerge' brood and place new mated queen on the brood and cover with cage. Re-check in 3-5 days and you can assess the bees behaviour to new queen under the cage- there will be newly emerged workers under the cage.
Michael Palmer has a good video of the technique and what to look for.
Good luck.
If you had a nuc I would put the old queen with frame of brood/bees and stores/foundation in the nuc for insurance.

 

[madasafish]

Acceptance may not be 100%. A press in cage - made of wire - or purchased is safer..

as an example https://www.beckysbeesonlineshop.co.uk/queen-introduction-cage-1076-p.asp

Being mean I make my own from mesh

 

[jeff33]

Thanks both, I usually use them for my queen introduction, they are very good.

The queen is laying poorly, the brood nest is only on 3 frames and they have lots of empty frames as I use the demaree to shift frames around. I have only found 2 queen cells on the middle of the frame but as bees don't follow books, they could be preparing to swarm. She is clipped but I might place her in a 3 frames nuc just in case.

 

[eltalia]

Just a note here where I am thinking an assumption is being made plastic
foundation is deployed.
For proper foundation it is wise to use a pushin backing mesh on the opposite
side of the frame as it does happen bees will chew a way in to the queen through
the wax,

Bill

 

[Beefriendly]

Acceptance may not be 100%. A press in cage - made of wire - or purchased is safer..

Most quote about 100% acceptance with the properly seated push in cage..how long do you leave her inside?..1week, 2 weeks?. Whetehr this method is suited to you will depend on how confident you are in releasing your new queen onto a frame and then trapping her under the cage...or setting up cage and introducing her through the pluggable entrance.
When I first started as a beginner many moons ago the idea of handling the queen and putting her inside a different cage would have terrified me....so I started with the easy method of queen + attendants inside cage they arrive in hive for three for 3 days.

 

[madasafish]

Most quote about 100% acceptance with the properly seated push in cage..how long do you leave her inside?..1week, 2 weeks?. Whetehr this method is suited to you will depend on how confident you are in releasing your new queen onto a frame and then trapping her under the cage...or setting up cage and introducing her through the pluggable entrance.
When I first started as a beginner many moons ago the idea of handling the queen and putting her inside a different cage would have terrified me....so I started with the easy method of queen + attendants inside cage they arrive in hive for three for 3 days.

I release her directly from her cage into the frame entrance - which is then pushed shut (it's wire). I tend to leave for 3 days and inspect If it looks ok, open. I have found bees burrowing in through foundation and releasing (but not killing her) - this was a really aggressive colony following for 50 meters or so and stinging like mad if they could..

 

[Beefriendly]

I release her directly from her cage into the frame entrance - which is then pushed shut (it's wire). I tend to leave for 3 days and inspect If it looks ok, open.

I thought the main thrust of this method was that you waited a week or two until she was surrounded by newly emerged nurse bees and was accepted by these as their queen?

For release in 3 days why not just stick with the plastic travel cages?

 

[Walrus]

I thought the main thrust of this method was that you waited a week or two until she was surrounded by newly emerged nurse bees and was accepted by these as their queen?

For release in 3 days why not just stick with the plastic travel cages?

Mike Palmer showed me how he does it using a wire push in cage & he checks after 4 days. If bees are happy with her (not gripping the cage, just getting on with their business) and there are no eggs outside the cage, which would indicate the presence of another queen, she is released. ITLD also uses a push in cage, but the plastic ones.

I think the point is that in those 4 days she changes into a laying queen having been on the comb and attended to by workers (emerged and through the wire). Queenless bees are happy to accept a laying queen.

 

[Beefriendly]

I think the point is that in those 4 days she changes into a laying queen having been on the comb and attended to by workers (emerged and through the wire). Queenless bees are happy to accept a laying queen.

That's a very good point Walrus.
Although I thought you were meant to select an area of solid brood that is about to emerge, which now leaves me wondering where she is finding empty cells for laying in?

But it is a good point you make about laying queens being accepted easily, you usually just need to run them in to a queenless hive. It's the postal queens that seem to need this time to recover from their ordeal and all this molly coddling.
As my current success rate with leaving them in their postal cages for a few days is very good I'm not going to change what I know works for me. But I do like to understand the nuances of all the different methods.

 

[simonf]

I have introduced a queen using this method just last week, I made the small nuc up and placed the queen in the same night, I placed the queen in a mesh push in cage (home made) over emerging bees with a patch of honey, so in the corner of a frame, 4 days later she was running about in the cage and the bees had found there way in, all was well

 

[Beefriendly]

4 days later she was running about in the cage and the bees had found there way in, all was well

The bees are not meant to find their way in..... until you release her.......glad all went well, even if not a textbook example.
Etalia was making the point earlier in this thread that if you do this on plastic foundation and push the cage all the way in to the plastic mid-rib there is no way the bees can find their way in.

 

[simonf]

The bees are not meant to find their way in..... until you release her.......glad all went well, even if not a textbook example.
Etalia was making the point earlier in this thread that if you do this on plastic foundation and push the cage all the way in to the plastic mid-rib there is no way the bees can find their way in.

As usual the bees neglected to read the books and burrowed under the cage

 

[jeff33]

It has happened to me a couple of times using wax foundation, I have tried to push it on a frame with capped brood on the other side and they can't access it that way.

 

[Walrus]

That's a very good point Walrus.
Although I thought you were meant to select an area of solid brood that is about to emerge, which now leaves me wondering where she is finding empty cells for laying in?

Absolutely not solid brood. See attached photo which I took last July.

 

[Eyeman]

I have introduced a queen using this method just last week, I made the small nuc up and placed the queen in the same night, I placed the queen in a mesh push in cage (home made) over emerging bees with a patch of honey, so in the corner of a frame, 4 days later she was running about in the cage and the bees had found there way in, all was well

If you do enough queen introductions then you will find all goes well until you find a colony that refuses to accept a new queen and want's one it's raised it self from a queen cell. This happened to me last year despite putting a test frame in before each new mated queen introduction (2 by push in cages left for 1 week) to confirm Q- then removing all QC's before introducting the queen. These were my locally bred queens which typically are easier to introduce than bought in new blood.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As my current success rate with leaving them in their postal cages for a few days is very good I'm not going to change what I know works for me. .

never had a problem with it - don't leave them queenless for more than a few minutes (or, if requeening a queenless colony, make sure they are hopelessly Q-) queen in her postal cage, with attendants, candy protected for at least 24 hours then only uncovered if colony look calm.
If it ain't broke, why fiddle with it.

 

[Beefriendly]

Absolutely not solid brood. See attached photo which I took last July.

Right, thanks for that Walrus.