removing a colony from an attic

[Fiafrati]

Hi everyone,

Me and my partner keep bees and we have recently been put in contact with a woman who wants a colony removing from under the plaster board in a dormer in her attic. The hive has been there 6 years but she has just moved in and wants them gone.

We are fairly inexperienced beekeepers (4 years of varying intensity and currently 11 colonies), we have never removed a hive like this but we are keen for the experience and wonder if these bees could be a good addition to our apiary and they seem disease resistant. A more experienced beekeeper went with her thermal imaging camera and suggested the colony is a very large and she detected where the bulk of the bees are currently. If we don’t remove them the owner will have pest control in, and so we are strongly considering doing the job, but have a few questions for more experienced people than us:

QUESTION: WHEN TO DO IT? Should we be waiting till the colony has brood before attempting to remove them, due to risk of losing the queen in the process? The site is coastal north wales and has very mild weather and the bees are black in colour, so they could have brood already but we might need to wait for spring to properly start.

QUESTION: HOW TO DO IT? So far we are thinking of putting together a bee vac as seen in some youtube videos, taking the plasterboard away and vacuuming them. Do any more experienced beekeepers have any advice/reflections from personal experience or resources to point us to that could help us know the right method to do this.

Thank you,

Frankie

 

[Boston Bees]

I appreciate that this isn't what you are asking, but I wouldn't do it myself. I have a contact list of people in this area who have experience in this area (they are often people who also have builder/plasterer related skills) and I refer such work off to them. In my humble opinion, in-house cut-outs are a specialist area of beekeeping.

If I did do such jobs, I certainly wouldn't want my first cut-out to be a large colony.

But heh - maybe you are just more handy and brave than me! It wouldn't take much. Good luck if you do choose to do it.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hi everyone,

Me and my partner keep bees and we have recently been put in contact with a woman who wants a colony removing from under the plaster board in a dormer in her attic. The hive has been there 6 years but she has just moved in and wants them gone.

We are fairly inexperienced beekeepers (4 years of varying intensity and currently 11 colonies), we have never removed a hive like this but we are keen for the experience and wonder if these bees could be a good addition to our apiary and they seem disease resistant. A more experienced beekeeper went with her thermal imaging camera and suggested the colony is a very large and she detected where the bulk of the bees are currently. If we don’t remove them the owner will have pest control in, and so we are strongly considering doing the job, but have a few questions for more experienced people than us:

QUESTION: WHEN TO DO IT? Should we be waiting till the colony has brood before attempting to remove them, due to risk of losing the queen in the process? The site is coastal north wales and has very mild weather and the bees are black in colour, so they could have brood already but we might need to wait for spring to properly start.

QUESTION: HOW TO DO IT? So far we are thinking of putting together a bee vac as seen in some youtube videos, taking the plasterboard away and vacuuming them. Do any more experienced beekeepers have any advice/reflections from personal experience or resources to point us to that could help us know the right method to do this.

Thank you,

Frankie

First things first. Removing the plasterboard (it's not lath and plaster I hope) is opening up a can of unknown worms. You need to have a very clear written agreement that you will not be accepting/incurring any responsibility for any breakages, damage and necessary building work or making good following your intervention. Let the householder sort out a builder to deal with that after the bees have been taken away. Do make sure you identify the entrance (s) the bees use and seal it/them permanently.
Clearing the room of furniture, carpets etc will be necessary to enable good access for working and you will likely need staging to reach the colony plus containers for debris and a hive to place the bees and comb in. It's the sort of job I would have taken on but I'm developing osteoarthritis lately and to quote Dirty Harry "a man's got to know his limitations". I strongly suggest you spend a while studying the procedures employed by J P the Beeman on you tube then remember the bees he deals with are mostly calm pussycats tolerant of being disturbed.

 

[understanding_bees]

So far we are thinking of putting together a bee vac as seen in some youtube videos, taking the plasterboard away and vacuuming them. Do any more experienced beekeepers have any advice/reflections from personal experience or resources to point us to that could help us know the right method to do this.

Removing a colony of bees from a building is a completely different undertaking to collecting a swarm. A bee-vacuum is an indispensable piece of equipment for this task. One of the most important aspects of a bee-vac machine is the ability to control the intensity of the suction which is used to pick up the bees. A normal vacuum cleaner needs a strong suction power to pick up dust and dirt from your floors, but this would be very effective in killing very many bees. It is imperative that a suitable method is employed to use gentle suction to pick up the bees. If you have the opportunity to use a vacuum cleaner which has a variable-speed control (and therefore variable-suction), then this would be an ideal device to incorporate into a bee-vac. If you cannot obtain such a machine, then a normal vacuum cleaner could be used, BUT a suitable control valve would be required which enables the suction power to be reduced at the point where the bees are sucked into the collection hose.

Jeff Horchoff (“Mr Ed”) is a beekeeper in Louisiana, USA, who has done very many cut-outs of bee colonies from houses, etc, and has posted many Youtube videos of his “bee wrangling” exploits. By watching his videos you will gain a good understanding of the kinds of procedure to be followed to perform a cut-out successfully. I am including two URL links below, for videos by Jeff. The first shows how he built a bee-vac, and the second shows him using it to collect a large colony of bees. One of the aspects of this method of capturing bees is that the queen bee usually retreats from the spot where the bees are being collected from the comb and surrounding structures. It is often (usually) the case that she is among the last cluster of bees to be collected, as the last pieces of comb are being removed.

 

[ericbeaumont]

the owner will have pest control in

It is exceedingly unlikely that a pest control company will agree to terminate a honey bee nest, either because they believe that the law prevents such action (it doesn't) or they love honey bees or don't want the bad publicity.

Years ago a PC company was prosecuted for misuse of carbamate and it may be that as a result pesties steer clear of such jobs. Bear in mind that unless a thorough job is done to remove all nest evidence and prevent access to the location by other pollinators or future swarms, it's not realistic to guarantee success by termination or removal.

Here's the story: Are Bees Potected by Law?

We are fairly inexperienced beekeepers

No matter; what is more relevant is whether you're experienced working with tools and feel able to estimate such a job. I don't mean estimate in terms of money (though I would) but in time, equipment and lateral thinking to resolve problems (which will arise). Don't let problems put you off the job, but accept that they'll turn up.

Plan for most eventualities: a van or estate car to carry a small angle grinder and hand saws, claw and club hammers, bolster and wrecking bar, bins and heavy duty bin liners for the comb, a vacuum to clear the dust and plaster, plastic sheeting to line the floor and hang a curtain, extension lead, ladder, big tray for cutting comb, empty made-up frames each fitted with several elastic bands, bread knife, smaller knife, nuc box, brood box with floor and roof, buckets, things I've forgotten and your usual beekeeper kit. Buy you own thermal gun; bring lunch; arrange a regular supply of tea.

Assess risk to yourselves and the building. You ought to agree in writing the extent of your work - to remove enough of the building fabric to enable removal of the colony. You would be wise not to agree to repair or replace anything. Are you insured? BBKA PLI won't be enough and you must assess pipework and wiring to avoid disaster.

Years ago I was pruning a hedge at the front of a house in Tottenham and didn't see the telephone wire: oops! BT reckoned it would cost £3-4k to dig a trench from the street and run a new cable, but of course I had PLI. Got home and discovered it had run out two weeks previously. I didn't sleep well but luckily two days later another BT engineer found a solution which was simple and FOC.

The risk to yourselves is most probably your loss of time: allow a full day to do the job, and more if access to the nest proves awkward or the queen scurries off into a distant hole (she will). If you have no bee-vac you'll need to hive the nest+Q on the spot to give the colony time to re-orientate before you can go up one night and lock them in.

A bee-vac is pretty much essential; for small nests a nuc vac will do but a big one will need a vac attached to a brood box. Contact Steve who makes bee vacs; he used to sell on eBay but is now on Facebook; his work is the very best.

 

[understanding_bees]

The risk to yourselves is most probably your loss of time: allow a full day to do the job, and more if access to the nest proves awkward or the queen scurries off into a distant hole (she will). If you have no bee-vac you'll need to hive the nest+Q on the spot to give the colony time to re-orientate before you can go up one night and lock them in.

You have made some excellent recommendations, and I agree with your advice.
Your comments (which I have highlighted in bold) are very helpful.
If a bee-vac is used then it is possible to relocate the bees without that delay. The "Robovac" style which Jeff Horchoff described, and which I have built, enables the new hive to be assembled in a new location, directly above the capture box without any further handling of the bees.

 

[Nannysbees]

I would definitely pass this one on to an experienced beekeeper. We have been asked to remove a few swarms but have declined. You never know how much damage you have to do to someone's property for the removal and i wouldn't want anymore bees!!!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The "Robovac" style which Jeff Horchoff described, and which I have built, enables the new hive to be assembled in a new location, directly above the capture box without any further handling of the bees.

Have you had much success using this method?

 

[Newbeeneil]

It is exceedingly unlikely that a pest control company will agree to terminate a honey bee nest, either because they believe that the law prevents such action (it doesn't) or they love honey bees or don't want the bad publicity.

Years ago a PC company was prosecuted for misuse of carbamate and it may be that as a result pesties steer clear of such jobs. Bear in mind that unless a thorough job is done to remove all nest evidence and prevent access to the location by other pollinators or future swarms, it's not realistic to guarantee success by termination or removal.

Here's the story: Are Bees Potected by Law?


No matter; what is more relevant is whether you're experienced working with tools and feel able to estimate such a job. I don't mean estimate in terms of money (though I would) but in time, equipment and lateral thinking to resolve problems (which will arise). Don't let problems put you off the job, but accept that they'll turn up.

Plan for most eventualities: a van or estate car to carry a small angle grinder and hand saws, claw and club hammers, bolster and wrecking bar, bins and heavy duty bin liners for the comb, a vacuum to clear the dust and plaster, plastic sheeting to line the floor and hang a curtain, extension lead, ladder, big tray for cutting comb, empty made-up frames each fitted with several elastic bands, bread knife, smaller knife, nuc box, brood box with floor and roof, buckets, things I've forgotten and your usual beekeeper kit. Buy you own thermal gun; bring lunch; arrange a regular supply of tea.

Assess risk to yourselves and the building. You ought to agree in writing the extent of your work - to remove enough of the building fabric to enable removal of the colony. You would be wise not to agree to repair or replace anything. Are you insured? BBKA PLI won't be enough and you must assess pipework and wiring to avoid disaster.

Years ago I was pruning a hedge at the front of a house in Tottenham and didn't see the telephone wire: oops! BT reckoned it would cost £3-4k to dig a trench from the street and run a new cable, but of course I had PLI. Got home and discovered it had run out two weeks previously. I didn't sleep well but luckily two days later another BT engineer found a solution which was simple and FOC.

The risk to yourselves is most probably your loss of time: allow a full day to do the job, and more if access to the nest proves awkward or the queen scurries off into a distant hole (she will). If you have no bee-vac you'll need to hive the nest+Q on the spot to give the colony time to re-orientate before you can go up one night and lock them in.

A bee-vac is pretty much essential; for small nests a nuc vac will do but a big one will need a vac attached to a brood box. Contact Steve who makes bee vacs; he used to sell on eBay but is now on Facebook; his work is the very best.

Well written and described as usual. I have removed several from buildings but none to date internally. Removing externally is hard enough.

 

[philipm]

I did a cut out in my neighbours wall some years ago an old vent into the kitchen.I built a bee vac and made everything ready lots of buckets, plenty of fresh water,extra bee suit so they could watch .Not quite as simple a job as I first thought the combs were all over the place and the mess was everywhere ,one problem is the bees when disturbed don't always stay on the combs but take to the air. I managed to remove most but had to come back over the next couple of days to suck up the stragglers who were pretty p*ssed off. I hived all the bees but they didn't survive probably the stress of the move. It was a good experience as I was still quite a novice but I would never do it again unless i really had to.If you do go ahead you will need plenty of kit and be able to isolate the room for a while if the ceiling has to be removed the last thing you will want to do is take bits out through the house until the bees have gone.

 

[understanding_bees]

Have you had much success using this method?

Yes

 

[enrico]

I did one in the ceiling of a house once. Never again. I had experience of cut outs of all types but this was something in itself. The honey just ran out over everything. I was covered in it. I had a bee vac. I had tubs for wax etc and loads of buckets of clean water but it was a nightmare. You can't leave anything behind and it all needs washing down when it is cleared. I had one other bad cut out and now I don't touch them. Not worth my time however much I love bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have done a a few cut outs as a favour for a friend who is a builder and they have always been in houses he’s renovating so access and making good is never a problem. The bee vac works very well. The horrid part is cutting the comb out and getting it into the box you are going to put the remaining bees in. It’s dirty sticky work. I’ve always managed to find the queen and cage her. It takes all day.
I’m never ever ever doing another abd I certainly wouldn’t do one where I had to gain access and repair afterwards.
Truly it seems a great and marvellous and brave thing to do but don’t. Pass it in to folk who do it all the time is my advice

 

[Anduril]

A few years ago when I was on the swarm collectors list, (previously I had collected swarms in my 20's, pre mobile phones etc.) one phone call I had was from a non-beekeeper who had watched plenty of YouTube videos, he had bought a jacket, hive tool, gloves and beevac and was going to remove them himself. He had scaffolding up and needed to have the bees removed in March as he had builders in to work on his roof in April, all he wanted me to do was rehouse the bees. His removal was a disaster, he was left with a small clump of bees in his roof, when I opened up the beevac there was no queen in there at all. The black bin bags he had used to cut out the comb contained more dead bees than the live bees in the beevac. Another phone call was from a doctor who wanted bees removed from his roof, I had the full tour of his house and garden until finally being shown where the bees were flying out of his roof. Apparently other swarm collectors had turned him down, I didn't disappoint, I turned him down as well, but gave him the number of a beekeeping pest controller.
One thing to consider is why the previous beekeeper with thermal imaging camera turned them down. We are not covered by our beekeeping insurance to undertake this kind of work. Also the homeowner is playing on your heart strings by saying they will call in pest control.

 

[understanding_bees]

QUESTION: HOW TO DO IT? So far we are thinking of putting together a bee vac . . . . . . .

The comments in this discussion thread have been very interesting to read. I was impressed by the thoughtful response of Eric (comment #5), as well as other helpful comments, but I express surprise at the number of comments which have sought to discourage the original enquirer.

I made comment earlier that a cut-out is a completely different undertaking to collecting a swarm. I would make the comment now that it does not need to be nearly as daunting as some people have suggested. I referred to Jeff Horchoff, who has performed a great many cut-outs. He has posted many videos of his “bee wrangling” exploits, which I have found helpful when it comes to understanding how bees may react to being captured/rescued in this kind of way.

It would be “nice” if it were possible to complete a cutout with no bee casualties, but then again it might also be nice if every hive inspection could be completed without crushing any bees.

The amount of sticky mess involved in performing a cut-out (or should I say the avoidance of sticky mess) is at least somewhat dependent on the skill and dexterity of the operator. I wish to emphasize though that a well designed bee-vac, operating at low-to-moderate suction power, is unlikely to kill bees. If the suction power is too great then bees will certainly be killed.

I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from performing a cut-out if they have the opportunity or need to do so, provided that they have suitable equipment for the task. Having an assistant is also of great benefit.

 

[Anduril]

The comments in this discussion thread have been very interesting to read. I was impressed by the thoughtful response of Eric (comment #5), as well as other helpful comments, but I express surprise at the number of comments which have sought to discourage the original enquirer.

I made comment earlier that a cut-out is a completely different undertaking to collecting a swarm. I would make the comment now that it does not need to be nearly as daunting as some people have suggested. I referred to Jeff Horchoff, who has performed a great many cut-outs. He has posted many videos of his “bee wrangling” exploits, which I have found helpful when it comes to understanding how bees may react to being captured/rescued in this kind of way.

It would be “nice” if it were possible to complete a cutout with no bee casualties, but then again it might also be nice if every hive inspection could be completed without crushing any bees.

The amount of sticky mess involved in performing a cut-out (or should I say the avoidance of sticky mess) is at least somewhat dependent on the skill and dexterity of the operator. I wish to emphasize though that a well designed bee-vac, operating at low-to-moderate suction power, is unlikely to kill bees. If the suction power is too great then bees will certainly be killed.

I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from performing a cut-out if they have the opportunity or need to do so, provided that they have suitable equipment for the task. Having an assistant is also of great benefit.

Our beekeeping insurance only covers swarm collection up to a certain height. Cutouts would have to be an arrangement between beekeeper and home owner in which the beekeeper is not liable to damage of the property, electrocution and flooding etc. The US houses you refer to are wooden, the UK housing is brick. I do know of commercial beeks who have tackled cutouts by removing bricks and there have been cases of beekeepers who agree to the removal, find they are in over their heads and are never seen again. I also know of a builder in South Wales who had a swarm enter his roof, he then filled in all the holes trapping and killing the swarm inside. I have been asked to clamber up scaffolding 50 feet roughly, to collect a massive swarm as well as one case of, we have 2 bees in our dining room can you come out and remove them. When questioned if there was a swarm outside, their response was we haven't ventured outside.
This cutout would be an all day affair with the possibility of a return visit the next. I did one cutout for the council and removed 95% of the bees, the rest moved into the cavity between the walls, however the council were satisfied with my cutout and didn't want to remove the wall.
A specialist company was called in to remove this.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/keepers-called-remove-110000-bees-11756296

 

[understanding_bees]

In the most recent video posted by Jeff Horchoff less than a day ago he performed a cut-out, in an abandoned house. The house had been abandoned following the damage which occurred during a storm.

Several things were of interest to me in this video:
On the day when the cut-out was performed the temperature was about 44F or 7C.
The bees had very thoroughly coated the interior surfaces of their wall-cavity hive with propolis.
The bees were not highly agitated during their removal.

I hope that this video will be of interest to you:

 

[understanding_bees]

The US houses you refer to are wooden, the UK housing is brick. I do know of commercial beeks who have tackled cutouts . . . .

Your comment is completely valid. In situations such as you describe I appreciate that destruction of the colony is perhaps the most appropriate action.

 

[Anduril]

I'm not advocating the destruction of the bees, I have always recommended the use of a beekeeping pest controller. There are a few on this forum.

 

[understanding_bees]

I'm not advocating the destruction of the bees, I have always recommended the use of a beekeeping pest controller. There are a few on this forum.

My preference is also for "bee rescue".