Re-queening

[Do224]

As some of you know I’m a complete newbie to Beekeeping and have made a start this year by catching four swarms.

I inspected them this morning and had a bit of an issue with swarm 1. Perhaps it was the time of day (9:30am but 17 Celsius). They really disapproved of being disturbed. I don’t mind being ping’d a bit but when they start trying to burrow up my sleeve cuffs it’s a bit much. Background is they were a prime swarm (I think...queen is huge, very long and tapered) that arrived just over 4 weeks ago and they’re now on about 8 frames (judging by what I saw last week when they were a bit more accommodating...I abandoned the inspection half way through today).

My other three swarms are still quite small having just capped their first batches of brood (I think they were all casts).

I’m considering combining two of these smaller swarms and using one of the queens to re-queen swarm 1.

Is this a sensible plan of action?

Should I give swarm 1 a bit longer before I condemn their queen?

Should I buy a new queen instead?

Many thanks, as always

 

[RichardK]

As a beginner like yourself, my take would be not to decide after one dodgy inspection. That happened to me some weeks ago (granted, not as extreme as yours sounded), and the following weekend I was to be fair, bricking myself. They were nice as pie. I've only had that one not so nice inspection out of 16 to date in total across both hives. We all have bad days, bees included.

 

[drex]

As you say you are new you will not know what to expect. Bees do tend to try to burrow upwards, hence I wear gauntlet sleeves over my marigolds. They also can appear to get more defensive as the colony size grows, so perhaps your smaller colonies could also go this way. Perhaps the larger colony are just " normal" . I would give them all a bit longer and just look at your protective wear.

 

[drdrday]

I agree with drex and RichardK - don't condemn them based on one inspection. Bees can have bad days just like we can. Of course that doesn't mean you should put up with bees that are unpleasant to inspect, but allow them a couple of strikes before they're out. As you say, if they're consistently irritable you've got options such as using one of your other queens, I just think it's a bit soon to consider that yet.

There's also a huge difference between a nuc of bees and a full size colony. Not because they're more defensive, but just having so many more bees makes a lot of difference when you're inspecting.

Personally I tend to try to inspect a little later in the day too - when I can anyway. Most of the older (and generally more defensive) bees are out and about foraging midday and most of the afternoon so you've got fewer bees as a whole and a greater proportion of younger bees in the hive.
This is probably just me overthinking things, but I sometimes think just the shock of an abrupt temperature change when you take the lid off gets them in a mood too. When I'm inspecting my main colonies, in wooden hives, and with supers on top I think by the time I've got all of the supers off and down into the brood boxes they've had a more gradual introduction to the outside temperature. However, when I'm looking at the poly nucs I'm generally immediately into the brood box of a well insulated box as soon as I've lifted the lid. I think it must be a bit like someone suddenly opening a big window and letting in a huge draft - you wouldn't like it much either.

I only wear nitrile gloves but I pull the cuffs up over the top of the elasticated cuffs of my bee suit. The nitrile cuffs fit snuggly and there's no way they're getting up my sleeve then!

 

[madasafish]

If I have to wear nitriles, long cuff ones are the way to go. Pull over jacket -stops burrowing.

https://tinyurl.com/66c3xzyw

 

[Do224]

Thanks all. I’ll have another go at the inspection in a couple of days on a warm afternoon and we’ll see if that improves the situation.

It was surprising to see them so aggressive. I was very slow and careful handling them and I laid the first frame over the top bars to try and keep them calm.

But they really went for it...it doesn’t bother me too much when they’re pinging off me...it’s when I see them at my cuffs (half a dozen or so on each wrist). Once they start with that I can’t concentrate on what I’m doing.

I’ve probably been around 30 or so hives while they’ve been inspected and I’ve only experienced ‘the cuff assault’ on one other occasion.

I’ll gaffer tape my wrists when I go into them next time. Wrists are the only point I feel vulnerable...I wear a couple of layers under my bee suit and use extra tough marigolds, so they can’t actually sting me unless they get in!

 

[Boston Bees]

I’ll gaffer tape my wrists when I go into them next time. Wrists are the only point I feel vulnerable...I wear a couple of layers under my bee suit and use extra tough marigolds, so they can’t actually sting me unless they get in!

Get a couple of pairs of gauntlets asap, which solve this problem pretty much completely in my experience. Much easier than taping yourself up every time

simonthebeekeeper Beeekeepers Arm protectors/Sleeves/Gauntlets : AmazonSmile: DIY & Tools

I laid the first frame over the top bars to try and keep them calm.

I am not 100% sure I would advise this. I haven't tried it. But it seems to me that it would be very easy to squash a bee (maybe even the queen) between the lower part of the comb and the top bars. And we all know how they react when you squash a bee.

 

[drdrday]

It might be that you got one sting on your cuff you weren't aware of and as soon as the bees smelled the alarm pheromone they'd all whale in on the same area. If they get in a sting during an inspection, on your person/suit anywhere (even if it doesn't reach your skin) you want to try and notice straight away so that you can stop that chain reaction in its tracks.
Walk away, and cover the scent in some way. Smoke your cuff or spray it with air freshener or rub over a bit of clove oil or wipe the area with one of those lemon wipes you get from fast food restaurants. I keep all of those in my bee bag so that I can react to a sting straight away or just deter a mass of bees even if I haven't seen/felt a sting.

Although gauntlets might stop you getting stung on your wrists, don't forget they're something else that needs washing before your next inspection.
I'd definitely be washing my suit (and gloves or whatever else you reuse) if I were you before my next inspection!

 

[gmonag]

...I’ll gaffer tape my wrists when I go into them next time. Wrists are the only point I feel vulnerable...I wear a couple of layers under my bee suit and use extra tough marigolds, so they can’t actually sting me unless they get in!

Try a few drop of Olbas oil on your gloves. Also you can wear cuff-sleeves to bridge the wrist gap. Don't be tempted to switch to thick leather gloves. You lose your touch, you can't clean them and you will squash bees - which will make them even more grumpy.

 

[Malcolm Stamp]

There is a very good chance that you will have swarmy bees that will be hard work to keep together to make honey. Not ideal if you are just starting out. What about re queening at least one of your colonies with known queen? I had some swarmy bees and re queened them with Carnies, they have turned into great peacful colonies and are too busy working to swarm. Going to inspect later today so will probably find swarm cells now.

 

[madasafish]

There is a very good chance that you will have swarmy bees that will be hard work to keep together to make honey. Not ideal if you are just starting out. What about re queening at least one of your colonies with known queen? I had some swarmy bees and re queened them with Carnies, they have turned into great peacful colonies and are too busy working to swarm. Going to inspect later today so will probably find swarm cells now.

It's easy to give carnies they space they need if you run langstroths - as I see you do (Ditto).

With Nationals, you need double brood - at least - and to be proactive in giving lots of space in spring.

"Proactive" is not a word used much in beekeeping books or teachings.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

"Proactive" is not a word used much in beekeeping .

But seldom practiced

 

[user 20297]

But seldom practiced

....and then mainly retrospectively.

 

[Do224]

There is a very good chance that you will have swarmy bees that will be hard work to keep together to make honey. Not ideal if you are just starting out. What about re queening at least one of your colonies with known queen? I had some swarmy bees and re queened them with Carnies, they have turned into great peacful colonies and are too busy working to swarm. Going to inspect later today so will probably find swarm cells now.

Maybe you’re right. I’ve had a scout around online and I think my bees most resemble (in appearance anyway) the ‘European dark honeybee’ which as you say seems to have a reputation for aggression and being ‘swarmy’. From what I’ve read Italian bees are the most peaceful...

 

[Swarm]

Maybe you’re right. I’ve had a scout around online and I think my bees most resemble (in appearance anyway) the ‘European dark honeybee’ which as you say seems to have a reputation for aggression and being ‘swarmy’. From what I’ve read Italian bees are the most peaceful...

View attachment 27233

Depends who you listen to really. My Amm and/or native colonies are anything but. Oddly enough, my mate has Amm and/or native colonies and they are the same. A local beekeeper has recently requeened and now has black bees, working with no gloves or smoke, he has never been happier.
Take some stuff with a pinch of salt

 

[ericbeaumont]

my bees most resemble (in appearance anyway) the ‘European dark honeybee’ which as you say seems to have a reputation for aggression and being ‘swarmy’. From what I’ve read Italian bees are the most peaceful...

There are so many variables that it's not really useful to describe temper in such definitive terms.

A.m.m. can be good tempered or highly defensive (by the way, bees are not aggressive) and open-mated offspring of Italians or Carniolans can be truly awful.

Bees are often labelled swarmy because the beekeeper is unable or unwilling to recognise that their management is the cause of swarming.

 

[Curly green finger's]

If your wearing nitriles give them a good clean and your suite.

Try a few drop of Olbas oil on your gloves. Also you can wear cuff-sleeves to bridge the wrist gap. Don't be tempted to switch to thick leather gloves. You lose your touch, you can't clean them and you will squash bees - which will make them even more grumpy.

I'm finding using marigolds if I have been stung that washing your gloves in between inspections with washing soda helps something I suppose we all do anyway?
Tryed airfreshener on my gloves it didn't help.
I agree about keeping your suite washed every week and keeping your gloves clean it makes all the difference with inspections and how the bees react.

 

[Arfermo]

I have found that by leaving inspections until as late in the day as I possibly can, the 'attack' syndrome seems to be vastly diminished. Maybe foragers are too tired and the housekeepers are too busy stowing the goodies away to waste the effort (and their lives) taking a defensive shot at my interloping of their territory. Worth trying. I stop any burrowing too by using parcel tape twixt gloves and suit. They try to find holes but rarely if ever succeed.

 

[Arfermo]

Picked my blackcurrants starting 20:30 pm yesterday and bees were absolutely fine with me being less that a metre away. Totally different to their attitude at an earlier time of day at this time of the year. Your choice about doing inspections earlier - but only if you really must. This advice is based on years of experience that midday or thereabouts is not necessarily the best option.