Re queening a vicious hive and increase

[tom8400]

Hi all

I have a vicious hive that is just impossible to work with but it's super strong brood box is almost solid with brood. It has two supers with plenty of bees if I didn't have another plan I'd have added another.

So my plan

Open it again Saturday and split by putting two six frame nucs on the site of the hive putting two frames in each with plenty of sealed brood and another frame from edges. Allowing flying bees to return to the two nucs

Then moving original hive with vicious queen to other site? Or can it stay close if more than 3m?

Close the three up

Then Tuesday if I can get queens delivered I can put a queen in cage in both nucs and destroy any qc's I guess as vicious bees il leave the seal over the plug for a few more days before removing it and checking again for qc's? Do I need to remove attendants?

I will leave original queen to produce honey and for splits as it's super strong but horrid there are currently no qc's


Perhaps someone can kindly point out any mistakes in this plan or advice as it seems more complex than a simple split when qc's appear

Thanks

 

[Ian123]

Nucs want to be made up with younger bees and sealed brood not the old flyers, these are generally the worst to introduce new queens to.

 

[pargyle]

Firstly, make sure you can get a queen or queens delivered ..

Secondly, are you able to find the queen ?

If you can, cage her temporarily so you know where she is (in a matchbox in your pocket if you don't have the necessary kit).

Move the original hive frames of stores and brood at least three feet away from the original spot. Put a new box with either foundation or ideally some drawn frames on the original spot.

The flyers will go to the new box - they might be a bit tetchy without a queen but there will be fewer bees. Unfortunately, evil bees are renowned for killing new queens that are introduced.

Your problem is that the genetics of the existing queen is what is leading to bad tempered bees and it's her you need to replace - she needs to be culled. If you are sure you have queens coming you can despatch her rather than putting her back in her box. The colony will start to build queen cells - knock them down so that they are hopelessly queenless and introduce the new queen to the colony in a cage and make sure you don't release her until they have accepted her - there is still a risk.

The box on the original site will only be flying bees and they will have no chance of raising a queen so they should accept a new queen - but again, introduce in queen cage and make sure they are accepting her before releasing.

I wouldn't go for two nucs on the original site .. you can split later on - there's plenty of time to make increase - it's only April.

But ... make sure you have queens coming first otherwise you have to go to plan B and let them raise their own queens with whatever genetics your local bees are - I don't have a problem with local bees but it depends on what your local bees are like.

Plan B - same as above but frames of eggs and some nurse bees in both boxes but make sure there are stores in the hive you move as the fliers will return to the original site. You can balance the colonies by swapping the boxes over after a day or so if they are separates by more than the recommended three feet (I like a bit more distance than that).

Well - that's what I'd do....

Good luck - nasty bees are horrid to deal with.

 

[Anduril]

Nucs want to be made up with younger bees and sealed brood not the old flyers, these are generally the worst to introduce new queens to.

Sealed brood and no open brood so that they don't draw queen cells, if you can't find any then you will have to go in later and knock them down

Firstly, make sure you can get a queen or queens delivered ..

Queens are available now from at least one supplier but make sure you use Special Delivery.

Secondly, are you able to find the queen ?

If you can, cage her temporarily so you know where she is (in a matchbox in your pocket if you don't have the necessary kit).

Move the original hive frames of stores and brood at least three feet away from the original spot. Put a new box with either foundation or ideally some drawn frames on the original spot.

Move the brood box 20 feet away, which will mean splitting the hive and rebuilding it later and leave for about half an hour for the flyers to go back to the original site, at that site you could place a box as Pargyle says or an empty nuc. Then after your manipulations return to original site.

The flyers will go to the new box - they might be a bit tetchy without a queen but there will be fewer bees. Unfortunately, evil bees are renowned for killing new queens that are introduced.

Your problem is that the genetics of the existing queen is what is leading to bad tempered bees and it's her you need to replace - she needs to be culled. If you are sure you have queens coming you can despatch her rather than putting her back in her box. The colony will start to build queen cells - knock them down so that they are hopelessly queenless and introduce the new queen to the colony in a cage and make sure you don't release her until they have accepted her - there is still a risk.

The box on the original site will only be flying bees and they will have no chance of raising a queen so they should accept a new queen - but again, introduce in queen cage and make sure they are accepting her before releasing.

Sorry Pargyle I disagree, they are old bees, although their pharyngeal glands are a bit past it for raising brood they can revert back but, as you said in a previous paragraph they are renowned for killing introduced queens.

I wouldn't go for two nucs on the original site .. you can split later on - there's plenty of time to make increase - it's only April.

The old flyers are returning to the old site.

But ... make sure you have queens coming first otherwise you have to go to plan B and let them raise their own queens with whatever genetics your local bees are - I don't have a problem with local bees but it depends on what your local bees are like.

Plan B - same as above but frames of eggs and some nurse bees in both boxes but make sure there are stores in the hive you move as the fliers will return to the original site. You can balance the colonies by swapping the boxes over after a day or so if they are separates by more than the recommended three feet (I like a bit more distance than that).

Well - that's what I'd do....

Good luck - nasty bees are horrid to deal with.

Other than what I have written in blue I am happy with the rest of what Pargyle has said. Although you could make up nucs now as Ian123, either in the same apiary and not on the original site or move them to the other apiary site that you say you have. But that is dependent on the availability of queens. Good luck.

 

[madasafish]

As above..

I have found spraying the colony with weak sugar syrup when doing the above makes it all rather less daunting as the bees are more occupied with cleaning up the mess than trying to kill you.

(A job I have to do in early May)

 

[Antipodes]

I'm wondering please about the situation where the hive is just so strong and vicious that you don't think you can find the queen by reasonable means.... (perhaps from previous experience with that colony, you anticipate that you wont be able to find her because there was terrible drama trying last time).

What would be the best way in that case to re-queen?

 

[Show me the honey]

You’ve got to kill the queen above all else. Her drones will spread bad genetics to all the other bee keepers that open mate. Just make sure you have replacement

 

[Repwoc]

I'm wondering please about the situation where the hive is just so strong and vicious that you don't think you can find the queen by reasonable means.... (perhaps from previous experience with that colony, you anticipate that you wont be able to find her because there was terrible drama trying last time).

What would be the best way in that case to re-queen?

Move the hive and place an empty hive on the original spot. The older (and stingier) flying bees will return to the original location after a while, making it easier to work through the brood nest to find HM.

 

[Anduril]

I'm wondering please about the situation where the hive is just so strong and vicious that you don't think you can find the queen by reasonable means.... (perhaps from previous experience with that colony, you anticipate that you wont be able to find her because there was terrible drama trying last time).

What would be the best way in that case to re-queen?

Sometimes, I switch hives in an apiary which are far enough apart, if they are too heavy, get help with the move. Close the entrance and strap it up securely to move. After the move, open the entrance and leave it for a day, all the flying bees will have to beg their way into the swapped hives. Swap strong hives, if you were to swap it with a weak hive, there is a risk that those fliers could kill the queen in the swapped hive, then open up. You should have a fairly docile hive to look through and despatch the queen, if not I put tobacco in the smoker, which should mask the alarm pheremone.

 

[madasafish]

Move the hive and place an empty hive on the original spot. The older (and stingier) flying bees will return to the original location after a while, making it easier to work through the brood nest to find HM.

If they are really horrible and aggressive and make finding the Queen difficult.:

Move the original brood box 6-10 meters away (sorry I am metric).Please nuc/box on original site - all as above.

Split the original brood box frames into the original and another brood box /nuc 1 meter away.

So you now have two boxes or nucs each with 6 or 5 brood frames in each. (well away from the original site of the hive so all the fliers are at teh original site of teh hive)

Within each box pair the frames up so the hive looks:
wall |space| frame frame| space |frame frame|space|frame frame|space.|wall

The queen will tend to hide on the innermost sides of adjacent frames.
Leave each box for 20-30 minutes.

Then look for queen on the adjacent frames inner sides.


The advantage is that the two brood boxes contain fewer bees so less hassle. And the the queen has fewer places to hide..

 

[masterBK]

Photo of pairing. Pair opened up in upturned roof to reveal red marked queen (frame on right in middle about a third way down)

 

[Antipodes]

Fantastic suggestions and explanations. Thanks.

 

[madasafish]

Photo of pairing. Pair opened up in upturned roof to reveal red marked queen (frame on right in middle about a third way down)

Great photos..

 

[tom8400]

Right new queen here tomorrow fingers crossed.

So I have taken away a certain amount of frames from brood and flyers hopefully gone back to vicious hm.

I will leave her in case I want more frames of brood or rob more house bees from her, so tomorrow I open again as this was all done Monday.

I destroy all queen cells, they were prepping for swarming as a complete hive. I will then add new queen in her cage with it sealed I assume I leave her nurse bees with her? Then in 3 or 4 days I pull the seal and let them chew their way out. Assuming the house bees aren't trying to sting her.

Is that correct? I can add more house bees if I need to from original hive or workers from supers to make sure there are no mistakes

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Right new queen here tomorrow fingers crossed.

So I have taken away a certain amount of frames from brood and flyers hopefully gone back to vicious hm.

I will leave her in case I want more frames of brood or rob more house bees from her, so tomorrow I open again as this was all done Monday.

I destroy all queen cells, they were prepping for swarming as a complete hive. I will then add new queen in her cage with it sealed I assume I leave her nurse bees with her? Then in 3 or 4 days I pull the seal and let them chew their way out. Assuming the house bees aren't trying to sting her.

Is that correct? I can add more house bees if I need to from original hive or workers from supers to make sure there are no mistakes

Sounds like a plan - yes, leave the attendants in with her.