Randy Oliver OA sponges

[Rory Fields]

Sorry if this has been done to death before, I'm a Luddite. Supposing the Randy Oliver method of placing 'Swedish cloths' of cellulose sponge impregnated with 50:50 veg glycerin to Oxalic Dihydrate gets DEFRA approval eventually (though I'm sure it'll come with a hefty price-tag for the license like api-bioxal does), I see and hear of it being used earlier in the season in both Scandinavia and places like NZ where they apparently add the OA soaked blue towels every inspection - but there's still at least 3 rounds of brood left for the season to be raised by this point of the year when most of us in the UK would be contemplating some form of IPM, so would it not work just as effectively implemented at this point in the year if and when it's licensed? I'm just a little confused as to the seeming preference for putting them in early and, I'll be honest, I'm not bright enough to grasp much beyond the v basic science and even less of the maths involved - is it to essentially kill virtually 99% of varroa (which obviously has implications on any adaptive behaviour, however slight, that a degree of exposure might produce and also would be impractical for most of us, not isolated from other beekeepers) or because using the method over many rounds of brood would keep the mite population below some critical threshold that treating in late summer might not effect so strongly? Just trying to get my head around it, thanks, R

 

[Erichalfbee]

I ran two hives last year....Honey kept for me and family...with Abelo's oxalic strips in all year and the mite drops on first OAV after harvest (which you can consider an accelerated drop measurement) were considerably lower than the other colonies. Whether anything like that will become legal I doubt. I'm not interested in my bees developing resistance/tolerance...whatever...so I would certainly consider long term oxalic use were it ever to be allowed.

 

[fian]

I ran two hives last year....Honey kept for me and family...with Abelo's oxalic strips in all year and the mite drops on first OAV after harvest (which you can consider an accelerated drop measurement) were considerably lower than the other colonies. Whether anything like that will become legal I doubt. I'm not interested in my bees developing resistance/tolerance...whatever...so I would certainly consider long term oxalic use were it ever to be allowed.

What would be the impediments so that continuous oxalic strips were not legal?
A. It seems that it does not accumulate in honey or wax.
B. It appears that varroa does not develop resistance.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What would be the impediments so that continuous oxalic strips were not legal?

The Veterinary Medicines Directorate

 

[fian]

The Veterinary Medicines Directorate

But will these officials have some scientific/sanitary reason to be against it, which is why I ask?

 

[Wilco]

But will these officials have some scientific/sanitary reason to be against it, which is why I ask?

The default is that nothing is allowed until it is authorised.

To be authorised it has to be proven to be safe and effective.

This is usually via scientific trials.

The whole process usually costs double digit thousands as I understand it.

It's not that 'they' object so much as just making it very difficult for anyone but a large company to licence meds.

 

[Jules59]

In Critical Care and Anaesthetics we used a few drugs that were "off licence" ie being used in a way not covered by the current licence. The off-licence use was supported with clinical evidence but a new licence would be very unlikely to be obtained because these were often "old" cheaper drugs being used in niche ways and the manufacturer had no financial incentive to go through a complicated, time consuming and expensive process to modify the licence.

 

[Rory Fields]

The default is that nothing is allowed until it is authorised.

To be authorised it has to be proven to be safe and effective.

This is usually via scientific trials.

The whole process usually costs double digit thousands as I understand it.

It's not that 'they' object so much as just making it very difficult for anyone but a large company to licence meds.

Yup, it's why Monsanto and Bayer will et al are the only ones who can afford to push through such things to market. I fear with sugar costs and beekeeping equipment retailing at such crazy prices, something's gotta give soon - and I'm fearful it'll be IPM. Cheapest 12.5kg fondant I've found this year is £14 per unit if i order a pallet of 80. Everywhere else is circa the £20 mark.

 

[sean-a]

Whilst it is not legal it is effective
Alcohol wash test result on 7 hives - zero mites
How do I know?
Couldn't possibly say!!!

 

[robmort]

Whilst it is not legal it is effective
Alcohol wash test result on 7 hives - zero mites
How do I know?
Couldn't possibly say!!!

that's interesting. What did you use, the towels or sponges and when?

 

[Erichalfbee]

that's interesting. What did you use, the towels or sponges and when?

What didn’t he use

 

[Paul_Ward1]

Sorry if I am off the mark here; wasn’t some sort of allowance made in NZ (I think??) where all OA containing meds were exempt from these restrictions? If this is the case, shouldn’t we as a (seemingly large and well informed group) be lobbying the government to allow the same, effectively getting around the VMD and this issue?

 

[boywonder]

I've been considering using an unlicensed method of applying a formic acid treatment, given the cost/availability issues with Formic Pro/MAQS.

See for example Homepage - Joachim Weiland Werkzeugbau GmbH u. Co. KG which is licensed for use in Germany and Austria with 60% formic acid, and is undergoing NZ certification.

I guess with this, with vaporisation of generic OA, and similar unlicenced treatments (like thymolated syrup for nosema) everyone needs to be (and I suspect is) grown up and pragmatic... including the NBU.

Let's face it, nobody is going to jail for this.

The above product is referenced positively in a number of research papers, and I am adult enough to decide whether to pays my money or takes my chances.

I note that even UK suppliers are not averse to selling unlicenced treatment stuff, like Abelo were doing with the OA strips and e.g.
Dispenser for formic and acetic acid

I'm not an OA user, but if I were, I would not be cowed by the VMD, in relation to trying the Randy Oliver/ towels approach.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

shouldn’t we as a (seemingly large and well informed group) be lobbying the government to allow the same, effectively getting around the VMD and this issue?

the biggest obstacle we have is the BBKA who, as history has proven seem to be obsessed with working against beekeeping - rather than for it.

 

[Rory Fields]

Whilst it is not legal it is effective
Alcohol wash test result on 7 hives - zero mites
How do I know?
Couldn't possibly say!!!

I, likewise, wouldn't dream of doing it, but magically know it's effective as of this season - must've just dreamed it ;-p

 

[Rory Fields]

that's interesting. What did you use, the towels or sponges and when?

When I definitely didn't do it, if I had, I'd have bought the Swedish sponges Randy Oliver uses and just made up a big batch with veg glycerine, with a thermometer in to prevent it turning into formic acid, and then just heat and stir until it's a clear liquid and pour into a bucket with the RO approved number of sponges. I've heard you get a lot of powder left though as it's a super-saturated solution you're going for - I'd just rub a little of the excess on the less absorbed sponges. All hypothetical of course

 

[Norton]

Take home message: it is effective.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

the biggest obstacle we have is the BBKA who, as history has proven seem to be obsessed with working against beekeeping - rather than for it.

Creating "new" rules and regulations often results in people getting sick of the palaver and giving up, changing from a treating regime to non treating or dropping out of the system but operating below the radar. Some have never registered or joined any associations except for a few who attend a beginners training course. Often a beginners course will be fully subscribed and attended but a high proportion of the trainees fail to continue into association membership once they have completed the training.
Admittedly a lot simply decide beekeeping is not for them but some go out and buy equipment, appear at bee auctions or acquire colonies by other means and away they go never to be heard from again.
Judging by interaction with some of the new beekeepers in associations I think the training they undertook went in one ear and out of the other, the training was sub-optimal or the trainee/new beek needs mentoring to gain confidence and simply ask rather than think back to what they were taught Is there a solution to this? Probably but it's not easily defined.
Going back to topic, (ish) the UK seem obsessed with creating regulations and standards or adopting someone else's and gold plating them. The nett result being methods that worked just fine for decades, even centuries must now be overseen by officialdom. Entire government departments created at astronomical cost to police the edicts and dire punishments placed on statute books for transgressors.

 

[Murox]

Creating "new" rules and regulations often results in people getting sick of the palaver and giving up, changing from a treating regime to non treating or dropping out of the system but operating below the radar. ........................... the training was sub-optimal or the trainee/new beek needs mentoring to gain confidence and simply ask rather than think back to what they were taught...................... the UK seem obsessed with creating regulations and standards or adopting someone else's and gold plating them............ methods that worked just fine for decades, even centuries must now be overseen by officialdom........... departments created at astronomical cost to police the edicts and dire punishments placed on statute books for transgressors.

Regrettably its nothing new, the UK in particular seems very happy to be controlled and told how to think and act by a whole raft of incompetent goverernace.

 

[Paul_Ward1]

This is the document I have been trying to get hold of. Is there a way we can push this ‘own use exemption’ along?